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When Si Goes Wrong

Qlip

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and i dont see how they are even remotely the same :unsure:

Your post explains what it is, mine explains my experience in having it. There's not enough data to say they aren't the same.
 

INTP

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Your post explains what it is, mine explains my experience in having it. There's not enough data to say they aren't the same.

your post says its somehow related to memory, jung says that its an subjective predisposition to sense perception and using that subjective factor as an determining factor over just perceiving 'what is' in the external world and separates memory from functions.

for example, when you see an mosquito, you see an small flying evil retard fucker thats really stubborn and wants to suck your blood at any cost who makes your skin itchy and makes annoying sound etc etc

now im not saying that an Se user cant understand that mosquito is like that, they just see an mosquito and can remember that a mosquito does those things and tries to suck your blood causing itchy skin. Se user can think, feel or remember those things related to mosquito, but he doesent see those things when he sees a mosquito, like Si user does.

"As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus."
 

KDude

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I don't even know what Si means exactly. None of the definitions are clear to me. Same with Ni, other than Ni is something very removed from my typical groundedness and kind of freaks me out.
 

Thalassa

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I disagree with [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION]. I think what [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] is talking about is Si. He doesn't just remember where his old seat is, he keeps subconsciously heading back to it, like it "feels right" to him.

Si makes the too low higher, the too high lower. Everyday objects do take on an almost mythical quality, like your mosquito story of seeing the mosquito as all these things instead of just seeing a mosquito. It actually think these are both Si. I don't think [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] was specifically talking about memory or his ability to remember.
 

Thalassa

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On the real, though, last night I made myself analyze *why* I kept having this sense impression and doing this action, as I was walking past it, and noticed that, yeah, it's about the way the street looks. It's very "open" and has the nice house with the nice gate, while my street isn't bad or anything, both of sides of it are really obscured by trees and vines. They look nothing alike, they just happen to be a short block apart from one another, and I guess the street I accidentally kept turning down was more favorable to me on some level, like I actually preferred the way it looked, some casual judgment of preference making me think it was correct.

I still think repeating a sensory pattern would qualify as Si, especially if it was irrational, and felt "right" to you. It's not the feeling of "omg where am I, I am so lost" it's more like "herp derp derp, let's turn down this street, la la la."
 

Thalassa

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Holy shit. Brainfart. Just a jumble of words to me, with the ocassional "objective" and "subjective" scattered about.

Basically Si is not just what it is, it is the sensing object, but with a deep sense of how the object "should be" attached to it, so in essence the Si dom can drive others mad with his nit-picking in his quest to make things "just right" for himself (like Goldilocks with the Three Bears), but not necessarily out of a sense of maliciousness; however, this is why SJs can be perceived as "critical" (and well sometimes they are, but that criticism tends to be exercised by Fe or Te upon others, making ESxJs more bothersome to some types) ...however, the ISxJ still has a perception of what should be properly contained and so forth, and if he makes this too apparent, other people can get irritated and mistreat him or her, and being an introvert and not a dominant judger, they can accept this "abuse" passively, only resisting with a seemingly surprising extreme stubbornness.

And maybe you can get through this part, untouched, as I believe it is quite important (it shows how Si and Ni are equally symbolic, but the Si type accepts the symbolism as reality, while the Ni type creates symbolism to represent reality):

Actually he moves in a mythological world, where men animals, railways, houses, rivers, and mountains appear partly as benevolent deities and partly as malevolent demons. That thus they, appear to him never enters his mind, although their effect upon his judgments and acts can bear no other interpretation. He judges and acts as though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality. If his tendency is to reason objectively, he will sense this difference as morbid; but if, on the other hand, he remains faithful to his irrationality, and is prepared to grant his sensation reality value, the objective world will appear a mere make-belief and a comedy. Only in extreme cases, however, is this dilemma reached. As a rule, the individual acquiesces in his isolation and in the banality of the reality, which, however, he unconsciously treats archaically.

It's hard for me to separate Si from Fi, realistically, in people though. Like being close to high Fi ISTJ I see just how particular his tastes and how deeply impressed upon him and refined they are. But unlike the INFP who puts stock in the ego of their Fi preferences and may think these particular tastes make them so special and misunderstood and sensitive, the high Fi ISTJ is just quietly but stubbornly solid and secure in the "rightness" of his preferences, because Si is concerned with a subjective "correctness."

Both can come across as pretentious as fuck to someone who doesn't agree with them, but to someone who understands or agrees in generalities with their peculiarities of taste, it can seem like a deep and admirable trait, a real talent for the aesthetic. I think this is why Jung says Si doms have great potential to be artists (despite Keirsey calling ISFP the artists).

Jung's definition says NOTHING about memory, but I believe the association with memory comes from what he refers to as the archetypical or mythical subconscious projection on to the object, which naturally comes from one's personal past experiences, herp derp derp, and this may create preferences or patterns that are repeated because they feel "just so" to Si.

But it's not strictly about memory or memorization, no.
 

INTP

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I disagree with INTP. I think what Qlip is talking about is Si. He doesn't just remember where his old seat is, he keeps subconsciously heading back to it, like it "feels right" to him.

Si is perception function, not unconscious decision making function
 

Thalassa

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T tells what something is, S just tells that something is

Um I don't know if this is because the language barrier, but Jung explicitly states that Si doesn't see something just as it objectively is, but with a subjective internal impression.

You know my ESFJ friend said she was confused until just recently by the statement "it is what it is." She was like, "what the fuck does that even mean?"

SJ :heart:
 

Thalassa

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Si is perception function, not unconscious decision making function

So you don't think Si plays a part in guiding someone to repeat a sensory pattern irrationally?
 

Qlip

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I disagree with [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION]. I think what [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] is talking about is Si. He doesn't just remember where his old seat is, he keeps subconsciously heading back to it, like it "feels right" to him.

Si makes the too low higher, the too high lower. Everyday objects do take on an almost mythical quality, like your mosquito story of seeing the mosquito as all these things instead of just seeing a mosquito. It actually think these are both Si. I don't think [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] was specifically talking about memory or his ability to remember.

your post says its somehow related to memory, jung says that its an subjective predisposition to sense perception and using that subjective factor as an determining factor over just perceiving 'what is' in the external world and separates memory from functions.

for example, when you see an mosquito, you see an small flying evil retard fucker thats really stubborn and wants to suck your blood at any cost who makes your skin itchy and makes annoying sound etc etc

now im not saying that an Se user cant understand that mosquito is like that, they just see an mosquito and can remember that a mosquito does those things and tries to suck your blood causing itchy skin. Se user can think, feel or remember those things related to mosquito, but he doesent see those things when he sees a mosquito, like Si user does.

"As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus."

Marm understands. Memory has something to do with it.. you can only remember what you perceive. And I perceive Si. This is really inefficient for memorizing suburban mazes.

When I see a tree on a corner lot in the distance, I don't say.. I remember that tree. I have to project myself there and feel if it kicks off associations and feeling that I felt while walking under it. If it 'pings' it means that's where I came from and I should walk that direction.

And then I have to use the 'force' once again to get myself going the right direction. It gives navigating a very mystical quality, where I'm following memories of feelings and impressions not memories of objects.
 

Thalassa

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Marm understands. Memory has something to do with it.. you can only remember what you perceive. And I perceive Si. This is really inefficient for memorizing suburban mazes.

When I see a tree on a corner lot in the distance, I don't say.. I remember that tree. I have to project myself there and feel if it kicks off associations and feeling that I felt while walking under it. If it 'pings' it means that's where I came from and I should walk that direction.

And then I have to use the 'force' once again to get myself going the right direction. It gives navigating a very mystical quality, where I'm following memories of feelings and impressions not memories of objects.

Yes! Si has a mystical quality for me too! Hmm...

Anyway, I was waiting for [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION] to give his answer to whether or not he believed that Si could be responsible for irrational sensing patterns, and I got impatient and decided to point out to him that Jung points to inferior Si in Ne doms for giving them addictions, obsessions, and compulsions. If that's not the dark side of an irrational sensing pattern, I don't know what is.
 

soppixo

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I love my Si, but it gives me a hard time with maps and directions. Everything goes fine if I keep my Si on a tight leash and let Te do its thing, but the moment Si is in charge, I end up with a bunch of very strong feelings about which vague direction to head towards and no idea in the end how I reached my destination.

It is like having an autopilot function that I can't turn off- great when I'm familiar with the area, but a complete nuisance when I'm somewhere I don't recognize. I keep defaulting on my prior sense memories and end up confusing the hell out of myself. Plus its a nightmare to use when giving directions to other people, whenever I try to describe my Si directions to my friends I get these blank looks, long pauses and "uh, I think I'll wait for you to come get me".
 

INTP

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Um I don't know if this is because the language barrier, but Jung explicitly states that Si doesn't see something just as it objectively is, but with a subjective internal impression.

You know my ESFJ friend said she was confused until just recently by the statement "it is what it is." She was like, "what the fuck does that even mean?"

SJ :heart:

jung said:

sensation tells you that something is
thinking tells you what it is
feeling tells you what it is worth, whether it is acceptable or not
intuition tells you where it came from and where it is going
 

INTP

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So you don't think Si plays a part in guiding someone to repeat a sensory pattern irrationally?

Si is about how you perceive, not something that makes you strive to perceive certain things over and over again. deciding to do something multiple times is an decision making process, even if its done unconsciously, Si is perceiving
 

Thalassa

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Si is about how you perceive, not something that makes you strive to perceive certain things over and over again. deciding to do something multiple times is an decision making process, even if its done unconsciously, Si is perceiving

Jung says inferior Si gives Ne doms compulsions and addictions. I am calling your bullshit, seriously.
 

INTP

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Marm understands. Memory has something to do with it.. you can only remember what you perceive. And I perceive Si. This is really inefficient for memorizing suburban mazes.

When I see a tree on a corner lot in the distance, I don't say.. I remember that tree. I have to project myself there and feel if it kicks off associations and feeling that I felt while walking under it. If it 'pings' it means that's where I came from and I should walk that direction.

And then I have to use the 'force' once again to get myself going the right direction. It gives navigating a very mystical quality, where I'm following memories of feelings and impressions not memories of objects.

now you are talking about Si. but holy cow, not using differentiated T with it makes it sound weird.

but explain how this:

I have a recent ridiculous story from my life.

A couple weeks ago I moved into a new house. There's a shopping center close by, and I walk there.

The first time I came back, I walked down the wrong street. I live on the fourth, this one is the third. That's okay, right?

Yeah it was okay two weeks ago. Ive turned down the third street four or five times now, its like a goddamn sketch comedy. One time I even walked all the way to the end and am all like where is my house? LMAO.

Okay but yesterday when I did it I caught it soon, and Im like Jesus christ Si fail.

Si makes the same mistake over and over again cuz it just feels right to turn down the third street!

If I had proper use of Si Id remember to go the right way instead of repeatedly the wrong way.

Jesus.

in other words taking the wrong turn multiple times has to do with Si?
 

INTP

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Jung says inferior Si gives Ne doms compulsions and addictions. I am calling your bullshit, seriously.

jung says:

"These make themselves felt when, for instance, the intuitive suddenly finds himself entangled with a highly unsuitable woman-or, in the case of woman, with unsuitable man-because these persons have stirred archaic sensations. This leads to an unconscious, compulsive tie which bodes nobody any good. Cases of this kind are themselves symptomatic of compulsion, to which the intuitive type is as prone to as the sensation type."

In other words you stay in relationship with someone because he/she reminds you of your ex in some ways you cant consciously see.


" Not that he means to be inconsiderate or superior—he simply does not see the object that everyone else sees; his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type—only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of compulsive hypochondriacal ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation."

these compulsive hypochondriacal ideas arent an product of Si, its obviously about N

http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon/o said:
In Jung’s model of typology, a thinking attitude is oriented by the principle of logic; a sensation attitude is oriented by the direct perception of concrete facts; intuition orients itself to future possibilities; and feeling is governed by subjective worth.

even tho there is some sensation in the bottom of those hypochondriac ideas, but the idea itself is about perceiving possibilities and believing in them, which is N. you can see similar thing with all N doms(and aux to some, but usually lesser degree), they tend to assume things and orient themselves according to these assumptions.

where did you see jung saying that Si gives addiction to Ne dom? anyways, like i mentioned Si is perceiving functions, it does not make decisions, but i dont disagree that it cant make you see something in a way that would distort your judgment, but its the judgment that decides things, not perception. also these compulsions jung is talking about are mental compulsions, not physical compulsions that you see in OCD.
 
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