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Is Ni reverse perception?

xisnotx

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For example:

I see a thing. It makes an impression on my psyche. Psyche defined as my cognitive self. The network of thoughts that are mine.

This is perception.

Ni, would be, then, the reverse of this. Reverse perception.

I see a thing. My psyche accepts the thing as real, outside of the self. (As opposed to perception, where the thing might very well be just a perception.) It, the psyche, then chooses how it will process this thing. Instead of seeing the thing as making an impression on the psyche...you see the psyche as making an impact on the thing.

More concretely. A stop sign is red. You perceive the perception of red as true, but you don't accept the red as true. This is straignt perception.

But, if you were to let to let the external be accepted as true, you then trust that the redness is outside of the psyche. It isn't a perception anymore, but an intuition. And you could easily color that intuition however you like. You could accept that the stop sign is actually yellow instead of red, even though it is red.

It's hard to explain.

But since this process is all internal, except for the initial external, and it is intuition, I'd have to call it Ni.

If so, I suck at it.
 

Ribonuke

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I admit...I had trouble following that post *SHOT* (dang Tert Ti)

Anyways, I think I can figure out how Ni would relate to 'reverse' perception though. Basically...Ni is seeing something without having concrete proof. It's like being able to visualize the earth's crust underneath the ocean that connect all islands and continents together, despite the fact that our eyes literally see them as separate land masses. (This is why Ni is often compared to being 'psychic', except we aren't always correct and we sometimes 'read too much into things'.)

Another example that might illustrate this 'reverse' perception would be this test:

Marks-blog.jpg

SOURCE

Now, everyone should be able to 'see' the square there, whether they use Ni well or not. However, Ni-users understand reality (not literally SEEING the concrete world) in a similar way.

Ni-dom children upon growing up notice connections between seemingly unrelated things. In preschool, for instance, the class happened to be gathered around a computer screensaver featuring fish swimming about. At one point, a seahorse swam off-screen, and then a smaller seahorse swam by from off-screen in the opposite direction. All the kids started going "Oooh, baby seahorse!", but I piped up and said "No, that's the same seahorse further away!" My preschool teachers were consequently astonished, since I was only 3 and I had somehow understood the concept of perspective and applied it to various things I encountered in day-to-day life.

In high school (and still in college), I would frequently link my subjects together, since I didn't see all the facts I learned as being segregated from one-another depending on whether they were "history" or "science". For instance, my world history teacher was talking about the possibility that the paranoia of peasants in the French revolution was possibly fueled by the mold in their bread. Since I had been learning about molds and parasites in my Biology class, I began wondering what sort of parasite might've been in that bread to affect a person's mental chemistry enough to produce paranoia.

So basically...Ni is seeing connections between things that concretely (or logically) have no discernible connection. We see separateness as an illusion, and try to link our world together by understanding the unseen influences that govern this world.
 

xisnotx

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Yeah, you see, that post made no sense.

How about this:

In terms of time.

Si looks at time from a present to past perspective. It only has that one perspective. Time is everything that was the past that led to this point. The future is more or less unknowable until it has been experienced. It doesn't occur to Si to switch the direction it operates in and extrapolate the results into the future.

Ni, though, would see time from both the present, the past, and the future. Time is everything that was, is, and will be. You can change that perspective depending on what you want. You can take on a "past perspective" a "present perspective" and a "future perspective". All this leads to a sort of symbiosis of the differences of perspectives, each right in their own way, and each wrong in the ways they aren't right.

Or maybe this is Ti.

Ugh..
 

xisnotx

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because i don't want to make another thread...

istp, i think, describes me more.
Se, the taking in of the external as it is, reflects more the way i think about the external. it goes back to the "stimulus" i was talking about earlier.
Ne would be taking in the external as a bunch of related, abstract facts.

Ti, I think, is a give in.

It's either Si, Ti, Fi or Ni.

There is no denying I'm introverted. I'm constantly in my own head. Sometimes so much so that I need to not be in my own head, just to balance everything out. Kind of the reverse of traditional introversion, at least as described by the mbti system. I need people at times just so I can stop thinking so much. But, naturally, I can't stand being with them for too long.

If not Ti, maybe Si, though I'm very rarely thinking about memories. The past, or the present. Fi? Not really, it's not about values, it's about truth. What is, in fact, true, as far as true is possible? And, given the absolute edge of truth, how do you then act upon that truth? This, leads to values, which I'd say is Fe; my values are almost always community or socially centered. I don't care about you hurting my feelings, how could you know you did, after all? But, if you hurt someone else's feelings? That should be acknowledge, even if it isn't strict condemnation of the affronting party. The affronted party should be recognized, regardless. Ni? I can't wrap my head around it, so I just assume that it isn't really something that I use frequently.

Secondly, I have to use an extroverted function, more specifically, a function that support Ti.
This has to be either Se, Ne aka a percieving function, because Ti is a judging function.

And, like I said, I think I use Se more than Ne. The thing, externally, just is, questioning that is an exercise of fruitlessness. The sun, just is. It isn't what it isn't, if that makes sense. Ne, I think, is more willing to see something that is as something that it isn't. It's crazy talk...borderline foolishness. But they make it work, so no judgement.s..

Which would make Ni my third function...under utilized, but begging to be trusted more. It makes sense, Se is becoming a bit of a snooze fest. I used to be very capable of anything Se related, sports, fixing things, spacial things as well. I've been called an "efficient packer, because I can see how things will occupy the space they need to occupy.." But, my opportunities to use Se have more and more become less frequent, or rather, I'm seeing that Se, while fun, needs to be supported by another function. As I grow up, Se itself becomes less adequate.

istp? I could live with that.

I still want to be entj though. In the near future, I'll be convincing myself that I am one.
 

Thalassa

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It's like being able to visualize the earth's crust underneath the ocean that connect all islands and continents together, despite the fact that our eyes literally see them as separate land masses. (This is why Ni is often compared to being 'psychic', except we aren't always correct and we sometimes 'read too much into things'.)

....

In high school (and still in college), I would frequently link my subjects together, since I didn't see all the facts I learned as being segregated from one-another depending on whether they were "history" or "science". For instance, my world history teacher was talking about the possibility that the paranoia of peasants in the French revolution was possibly fueled by the mold in their bread. Since I had been learning about molds and parasites in my Biology class, I began wondering what sort of parasite might've been in that bread to affect a person's mental chemistry enough to produce paranoia.

So basically...Ni is seeing connections between things that concretely (or logically) have no discernible connection. We see separateness as an illusion, and try to link our world together by understanding the unseen influences that govern this world.

This is how my mind works, but only began to work that way as a late teen/grown up, I don't have any marvelous 3 year old baby seahorse stories, as my Ni is tertiary.
 

SilkRoad

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So basically...Ni is seeing connections between things that concretely (or logically) have no discernible connection. We see separateness as an illusion, and try to link our world together by understanding the unseen influences that govern this world.

To me this is pretty spot-on about how Ni works. For me, anyway.

I don't subscribe to the "Ni makes me have magical infallible insight" way of thinking that unfortunately some Ni-doms seem to. But it does seem that my whole life I've been seeing connections that others simply don't, and they make perfect sense to me, and a lot of the time they make far more sense than anything else. Conversely, I frequently miss things that are obvious to most other people... (ie. the "it was right in front of your nose" kind of things) :laugh:
 

SilkRoad

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Oh, and this quote from T S Eliot makes me think of Ni, as well. It's from 'Burnt Norton'. I'm pretty sure T S Eliot was an INTJ.


Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.
What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.
 
G

Ginkgo

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Pretty much. Nietzsche is a good example of reverse perception, especially in regard to his ethics. He was a total recluse who wasn't even willing to sacrifice his ego enough for his fellow man. His mind was basically just a feedback loop of skewed perceptions about his relationship to others. The end result was that he probably felt like total shit inside. Maybe withdrawal from opium. We can't blame Ni entirely. The Nietzsche experience is probably exactly like this:

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2FiYq55oac&feature=related"]A Ladies Man[/YOUTUBE]

"Shit on top of itself". Yeah, totally logical. Sounds more like reverse perception or whatever.
 
G

Ginkgo

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BTW, I'm just talking about unhealthy Ni. Healthy Ni is fantastico. It's a paradox shaper, so it's bound to take just about any perception and turn it inside out via the unconscious.
 

Ribonuke

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This is how my mind works, but only began to work that way as a late teen/grown up, I don't have any marvelous 3 year old baby seahorse stories, as my Ni is tertiary.

"Marvelous 3-year-old baby seahorse stories"! XDDDD I love it!

[MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION] =D I'm glad I could agree with a fellow INFJ in that regard!

Yeah, the 'right in front of your nose' thing tends to happen to me a lot. I remember I got SO mad when I was working with a group in a middle-school physics class, and I was trying to argue a point. They kept interrupting me to try and correct me, but it only made me get angrier. Eventually, it got to the point where I was literally red-in-the-face YELLING at them because they wouldn't let me argue my point (the entire class looked at me like I was nuts, understandably). After I'd finished making my case, I allowed them to correct me; I was wrong. I immediately calmed down and apologized for my reaction. See...I realized in hindsight that the argument mutated into no longer being about the physics subject matter, and more about me trying to get them to let me at LEAST finish speaking, even if I was wrong. I don't like people interrupting me to try and 'save me the trouble', because I want to figure it out on my own. ((Sorry if that seemed like a non-sequitur))
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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Ni has to be you. It is not perception at all, but no function is perception. Perception is thought as you said, not a way of thinking; which, are the functions.

Changing perception is more like it. Well, that's what functions are in general. Or that is how you note a change in function.
 

Eugene Watson VIII

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I get what you mean and I suppose it is...it's more just like a.....'what if it was this way?'.
 

Kalach

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But, if you were to let to let the external be accepted as true, you then trust that the redness is outside of the psyche. It isn't a perception anymore, but an intuition. And you could easily color that intuition however you like. You could accept that the stop sign is actually yellow instead of red, even though it is red.

Or...

if you accept that sense data exists outside of you, then once in a while you might like to consciously fashion some coherence over time for it. You might like to imagine that threaded through the stream of sense data there are reoccurring forms.

And you might like to start screwing with those forms. You might like to alter the combinations in which you imagine you could find them. And after some time, screwing around like this, you'll eventually start deciding what these forms really stand in for if anything at all.

Etc.

And doing that consciously is "using" Ni (and judgment).

But, in my humble estimation, perception doesn't and can't exist only at the conscious level. No one, for instance, can "do" conscious Se without some idiosyncratic unconscious information in the background that makes the Se "yours". That unconscious information would be lower level Ni. And likewise, there is no conscious Ni without lower level Se since no one makes idiosyncratic connections between bundles of concepts without some unquestioned starter data of the "out there" seen first.


But it seems like in the OP you might have set up extroverted perception as the "real" perception, in which case, yeah, Ni is one of the "reverse" perceptions.
 

Reverie

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Pretty much. Nietzsche is a good example of reverse perception, especially in regard to his ethics. He was a total recluse who wasn't even willing to sacrifice his ego enough for his fellow man. His mind was basically just a feedback loop of skewed perceptions about his relationship to others. The end result was that he probably felt like total shit inside. Maybe withdrawal from opium. We can't blame Ni entirely. The Nietzsche experience is probably exactly like this:



"Shit on top of itself". Yeah, totally logical. Sounds more like reverse perception or whatever.
However you feel about Nietzsche and his ethics, there's no denying he was extraordinarily perceptive and accurate at predicting the future course of affairs in the western world. Though I'm no expert I've never heard anyone refer to him as an opium user.
 
G

Ginkgo

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However you feel about Nietzsche and his ethics, there's no denying he was extraordinarily perceptive and accurate at predicting the future course of affairs in the western world. Though I'm no expert I've never heard anyone refer to him as an opium user.

There's a first time for everything.
 

sprinkles

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To me everything is just connected. I find this often annoys people for some reason because they seem to want to isolate things and make absolutes, while I seem to be seeing things in motion as a process involving all sorts of dependencies.

I think I'm well noted for saying "It depends on..." and "Not always" and "Not necessarily" and other such phrases that attempt to avoid absoluteness and take in the big picture because the world is fluid and in constant change, but this seems to infuriate the people who want things to be concrete and pinned down.
 

Reverie

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There's a first time for everything.
Whatever the case may be accurate predictions and perceptions. If he was high as a kite while doing it even more impressive.
 

Thalassa

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However you feel about Nietzsche and his ethics, there's no denying he was extraordinarily perceptive and accurate at predicting the future course of affairs in the western world. Though I'm no expert I've never heard anyone refer to him as an opium user.

How about a syphilitic madman who hated women because he couldn't get anyone he didn't pay?
 

Reverie

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How about a syphilitic madman who hated women because he couldn't get anyone he didn't pay?
...and also very perceptive and accurate with his predictions about what would come to pass in the western society.

Not when it came to gender issues... Just because you're quite brilliant in one area doesn't mean you have accurate insight into everything. I mean I read Bukowski. I think he's a great poet and at the same time he's a totally vile guy from a feminist perspective...and I'm a feminist. I threw Bukowski's Women off of the deck of a ship into the Atlantic because I found it so awful. He's still a great poet.
 

EntangledLight

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to me it's always been in not seeing limitations or ideas as reality. i know that both exist, but in acknowledging both as benchmarks only and not as "laws of the universe"... it frees one up to step outside of a loop that could occur from seeing both as concrete, which can stop one from moving on past what they know to be real.

even when just toying around with an idea, or trying to think through a problem, i find it best to accept nothing as fact as it can, like i said, stop you from finding a solution. i think it's more beneficial (for me) to say, "it's there, but it could just as easily not be there; so let's view it as something that's more ethereal and less solid for the sake of the discussion since using what came before, while helpful in establishing parameters or a base on which to think, it can easily be harmful if we take it to be complete truth since doing so can make us gloss over a quirk in that 'earlier base'--or even a perception of the quirk can be a 'half-truth' that came about from an incomplete knowledge--which can lead to no solutions".

it's almost like if you pick a place on a map or a path through a maze and say "that's the beginning--no matter what anyone else has to say". this can be good for following through on something or getting a job done, or even in perfecting a method of leaving that initial base, but it can also cause one to never look at where that base came from, or to the left, right, or even behind the base and notice that there's a shortcut, or that there's something to nature of the base that will staunch all efforts of finally getting to the end.

edit: this makes people hate and love me, especially teachers. something that the whole personality-type-thing has shown me is that people who get irritated when i go off on a tangent that's like the above most likely have Ni (or just N in general?) lower in the makeup. before i've always seen their reaction as narrow mindedness, but now i know that it's not, not truly, and that if there reaction is narrow, then my reaction to their reaction has to be narrow. it let's me know how best to deal with others when it comes to certain subjects and how i have to approach something in order to get my point across.
 
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