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  1. #11
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    Ni has to be you. It is not perception at all, but no function is perception. Perception is thought as you said, not a way of thinking; which, are the functions.

    Changing perception is more like it. Well, that's what functions are in general. Or that is how you note a change in function.

  2. #12
    Senor Membrae Eugene Watson VIII's Avatar
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    I get what you mean and I suppose it is...it's more just like a.....'what if it was this way?'.
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  3. #13
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    But, if you were to let to let the external be accepted as true, you then trust that the redness is outside of the psyche. It isn't a perception anymore, but an intuition. And you could easily color that intuition however you like. You could accept that the stop sign is actually yellow instead of red, even though it is red.
    Or...

    if you accept that sense data exists outside of you, then once in a while you might like to consciously fashion some coherence over time for it. You might like to imagine that threaded through the stream of sense data there are reoccurring forms.

    And you might like to start screwing with those forms. You might like to alter the combinations in which you imagine you could find them. And after some time, screwing around like this, you'll eventually start deciding what these forms really stand in for if anything at all.

    Etc.

    And doing that consciously is "using" Ni (and judgment).

    But, in my humble estimation, perception doesn't and can't exist only at the conscious level. No one, for instance, can "do" conscious Se without some idiosyncratic unconscious information in the background that makes the Se "yours". That unconscious information would be lower level Ni. And likewise, there is no conscious Ni without lower level Se since no one makes idiosyncratic connections between bundles of concepts without some unquestioned starter data of the "out there" seen first.


    But it seems like in the OP you might have set up extroverted perception as the "real" perception, in which case, yeah, Ni is one of the "reverse" perceptions.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Pretty much. Nietzsche is a good example of reverse perception, especially in regard to his ethics. He was a total recluse who wasn't even willing to sacrifice his ego enough for his fellow man. His mind was basically just a feedback loop of skewed perceptions about his relationship to others. The end result was that he probably felt like total shit inside. Maybe withdrawal from opium. We can't blame Ni entirely. The Nietzsche experience is probably exactly like this:



    "Shit on top of itself". Yeah, totally logical. Sounds more like reverse perception or whatever.
    However you feel about Nietzsche and his ethics, there's no denying he was extraordinarily perceptive and accurate at predicting the future course of affairs in the western world. Though I'm no expert I've never heard anyone refer to him as an opium user.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    However you feel about Nietzsche and his ethics, there's no denying he was extraordinarily perceptive and accurate at predicting the future course of affairs in the western world. Though I'm no expert I've never heard anyone refer to him as an opium user.
    There's a first time for everything.

  6. #16
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    To me everything is just connected. I find this often annoys people for some reason because they seem to want to isolate things and make absolutes, while I seem to be seeing things in motion as a process involving all sorts of dependencies.

    I think I'm well noted for saying "It depends on..." and "Not always" and "Not necessarily" and other such phrases that attempt to avoid absoluteness and take in the big picture because the world is fluid and in constant change, but this seems to infuriate the people who want things to be concrete and pinned down.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    There's a first time for everything.
    Whatever the case may be accurate predictions and perceptions. If he was high as a kite while doing it even more impressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    However you feel about Nietzsche and his ethics, there's no denying he was extraordinarily perceptive and accurate at predicting the future course of affairs in the western world. Though I'm no expert I've never heard anyone refer to him as an opium user.
    How about a syphilitic madman who hated women because he couldn't get anyone he didn't pay?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    How about a syphilitic madman who hated women because he couldn't get anyone he didn't pay?
    ...and also very perceptive and accurate with his predictions about what would come to pass in the western society.

    Not when it came to gender issues... Just because you're quite brilliant in one area doesn't mean you have accurate insight into everything. I mean I read Bukowski. I think he's a great poet and at the same time he's a totally vile guy from a feminist perspective...and I'm a feminist. I threw Bukowski's Women off of the deck of a ship into the Atlantic because I found it so awful. He's still a great poet.

  10. #20
    Senior Member EntangledLight's Avatar
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    to me it's always been in not seeing limitations or ideas as reality. i know that both exist, but in acknowledging both as benchmarks only and not as "laws of the universe"... it frees one up to step outside of a loop that could occur from seeing both as concrete, which can stop one from moving on past what they know to be real.

    even when just toying around with an idea, or trying to think through a problem, i find it best to accept nothing as fact as it can, like i said, stop you from finding a solution. i think it's more beneficial (for me) to say, "it's there, but it could just as easily not be there; so let's view it as something that's more ethereal and less solid for the sake of the discussion since using what came before, while helpful in establishing parameters or a base on which to think, it can easily be harmful if we take it to be complete truth since doing so can make us gloss over a quirk in that 'earlier base'--or even a perception of the quirk can be a 'half-truth' that came about from an incomplete knowledge--which can lead to no solutions".

    it's almost like if you pick a place on a map or a path through a maze and say "that's the beginning--no matter what anyone else has to say". this can be good for following through on something or getting a job done, or even in perfecting a method of leaving that initial base, but it can also cause one to never look at where that base came from, or to the left, right, or even behind the base and notice that there's a shortcut, or that there's something to nature of the base that will staunch all efforts of finally getting to the end.

    edit: this makes people hate and love me, especially teachers. something that the whole personality-type-thing has shown me is that people who get irritated when i go off on a tangent that's like the above most likely have Ni (or just N in general?) lower in the makeup. before i've always seen their reaction as narrow mindedness, but now i know that it's not, not truly, and that if there reaction is narrow, then my reaction to their reaction has to be narrow. it let's me know how best to deal with others when it comes to certain subjects and how i have to approach something in order to get my point across.

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