• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Tertiary Temptation or Tertiary Relief?

StephMC

Controlled Mischief
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
1,044
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
School me. What are you thoughts on your 3rd function? Is it "good" to develop, or is it a stressful an event? I'm just curious on what everyone's take is on that.

While you're at it, what about your 4th function? Do you desire to develop it more? Would it make you a more developed individual if you did develop your 3rd and 4th functions?
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
To find yourself you need to lose yourself.

losing yourself is painful for the ego, since ego wants to preserve itself, this naturally is stressful for the person. after all, this self that you are losing is not the real self you lose, its just the ego-self you lose, but what you find is self greater than your ego. tert and inferior functions are outside of your ego and are more directed by your shadow. so this is essentially about you having to face your shadow and conquer it, by losing your ego-self. without losing your ego-self, it is impossible to conquer your shadow, since your ego tries to repress the shadow side of you.

when it comes to function development, its usually about something that creates an conflict between dom and inferior functions. tert can offer you a new perspective to it(which is a relief) and this new perspective also allows some room for inferior. bigger the conflict, more stressful it is, more it forces you to develop.

yes its good to develop your tert and inferior functions, even tho its not an pleasant experience at the time it happens. inferior development before gaining the new perspective from tert is really hard, if not impossible and most likely just causes a major headache or even neurosis and wont let you develop inferior properly.

i suggest reading this about self regulation of the psyche:

http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon/s said:
Self-regulation of the psyche
A concept based on the compensatory relationship between consciousness and the unconscious. (See also adaptation, compensation, neurosis, opposites and transcendent function.)


"The psyche does not merely react, it gives its own specific answer to the influences at work upon it."["ome Crucial Points in Psychoanalysis," CW 4, par. 665.]

The process of self-regulation is going on all the time within the psyche. It only becomes noticeable when ego-consciousness has particular difficulty in adapting to external or internal reality. That is often the start of a process, proceeeding along the lines outlined in the chart, that may lead to individuation.

The Self-regulation of the Psyche

a)Difficulty of adaptation. Little progression of libido.
b)Regression of energy (depression, lack of disposable energy).
c)Activation of unconscious contents (fantasies, complexes, archetypal images, inferior function, opposite attitude, shadow, anima/animus, etc.). Compensation.
d)Symptoms of neurosis (confusion, fear, anxiety, guilt, moods, extreme affect, etc.).
e)Unconscious or half-conscious conflict between ego and contents activated in the unconscious. Inner tension. Defensive reactions.
f)Activation of the transcendent function, involving the self and archetypal patterns of wholeness.
g)Formation of symbols (numinosity, synchronicity).
h)Transfer of energy between unconscious contents and consciousness. Enlargement of the ego, progression of energy.
i)Assimilation of unconscious contents. Individuation.


Consciousness and the unconscious seldom agree as to their contents and their tendencies. The self-regulating activities of the psyche, manifest in dreams, fantasies and synchronistic experiences, attempt to correct any significant imbalance. According to Jung, this is necessary for several reasons:


(1) Consciousness possesses a threshold intensity which its contents must have attained, so that all elements that are too weak remain in the unconscious.

(2) Consciousness, because of its directed functions, exercises an inhibition (which Freud calls censorship) on all incompatible material, with the result that it sinks into the unconscious.

(3) Consciousness constitutes the momentary process of adaptation, whereas the unconscious contains not only all the forgotten material of the individual’s own past, but all the inherited behaviour traces constituting the structure of the mind [i.e., archetypes].

(4) The unconscious contains all the fantasy combinations which have not yet attained the threshold intensity, but which in the course of time and under suitable conditions will enter the light of consciousness.["The Transcendent Function," CW 8, par. 132.]

"Once the unconscious content has been given form and the meaning of the formulation is understood, the question arises as to how the ego will relate to this position, and how the ego and the unconscious are to come to terms. This is the second and more important stage of the procedure, the bringing together of opposites for the production of a third: the transcendent function. At this stage it is no longer the unconscious that takes the lead, but the ego." - Jung
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I feel like it's all about balance.

When I'm using my third function with conscious attention and regulation, it can be a HUGE help - it can even be what saves me from my biggest pitfall (in my case, Te-directed action overcoming Ne + e6 tendency to get stuck in my own head). When I don't engage it enough, I do get stuck in my own head; when I engage it too heavily and without conscious attention, it can become the infamous ENFP Te-hammer, and alienate people and destroy good, careful progress.

I have a tenuous relationship with my 4th function (Si). I have a tendency to get frustrated when I have to listen to what feels like too much detail, wanting to skip ahead, but I have found that if I shut myself up for a minute and listen, then I learn things. It's hard to stop the Ne-jumps, though... my mind wants to race ahead to the "inevitable" conclusions instead of hanging out in detail - but the downside of that is that if I did engage Si more, my Ne would reach more refined and accurate conclusions, instead of the wild, fatalistic leaps it can, at times, take.

Essentially, when I am engaging Si and Te appropriately, I become more productive, more organized, more aware, and more accurate. So, yes, it would make me a better individual to work on these!
 

StephMC

Controlled Mischief
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
1,044
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Thanks for the responses, [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION] :)

I tend to agree with both of you. I've always appreciated the help my tertiary Ni offers, and I really always have always aspired to my 4th function, Fe. A few years ago I read a little bit about Lenore Thomson's tertiary temptation theory, and was just briefly reminded of it yesterday. She seems to bastardize the third function... or maybe I'm just misinterpreting that :huh:

It might sound a little judgmental, but I've always got an immature vibe from people that use solely their first two functions, with no real signs of developing anything else... especially when their first function looks like a dominating overlord. Thoughts?
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
It might sound a little judgmental, but I've always got an immature vibe from people that use solely their first two functions, with no real signs of developing anything else... especially when their first function looks like a dominating overlord. Thoughts?
Do you have any particular examples (individuals or types) in mind?

Tertiary and inferior are something I understand much better in theory than in practice.
 

StephMC

Controlled Mischief
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
1,044
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Do you have any particular examples (individuals or types) in mind?

Tertiary and inferior are something I understand much better in theory than in practice.

I notice it mostly in Te doms, probably because I'm a very different Ti dom.

I was good friends for an ENTJ for quite some time. When we were in high school, he was very rigid, and never ventured outside of his Te + Ni. He was close-minded, and hard to talk to -- it was all very black and white for him. Over time, he became a little more flexible, and you would see little flashes of Se. While he was still very dependent on Te, that Se helped balance him out when it was in its positive form. He was a lot easier to have conversations with after that.

My ENFP sister struggled for a long time with Te. At first, she had no desire to work on it, but it would pop out at sporadic moments anyways -- especially when she had too much caffeine or something :shock:. I roomed with her in college for a year when she was going through an especially bad anti Te, only Ne/Fi mode. It was pretty brutal. She failed a few classes because she wouldn't go to them, and the house was in complete disarray no matter how often I went through and tried to pick things up (and trust me, I'm not really one to care too much about being orderly). Over the past few years, she's had a strong motivation on getting herself on track and learning how to get organized. I've seen a lot of growth and change in her. Her apartment looks pretty good now, all things considered, and she seems to do very well at work.

So as far as I can tell, the moral of the story is pretty much what INTP said... without losing your ego-self, you can't conquer your shadow. And your shadow will come out at some point... left unchecked, it looks like a mess.
 

Such Irony

Honor Thy Inferior
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
5,059
MBTI Type
INtp
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
School me. What are you thoughts on your 3rd function? Is it "good" to develop, or is it a stressful an event? I'm just curious on what everyone's take is on that.

While you're at it, what about your 4th function? Do you desire to develop it more? Would it make you a more developed individual if you did develop your 3rd and 4th functions?

I'm working on developing both the 3rd and 4th functions. It makes me a more well-rounded individual and less stuck. It can be awkward, particularly with the 4th function and I've had embarrassing moments due to lack of attention and paying attention to the wrong stuff. I think that's one advantage of getting older- you become more balanced and less one-sided in your personality.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I feel like it's all about balance.

When I'm using my third function with conscious attention and regulation, it can be a HUGE help - it can even be what saves me from my biggest pitfall (in my case, Te-directed action overcoming Ne + e6 tendency to get stuck in my own head). When I don't engage it enough, I do get stuck in my own head; when I engage it too heavily and without conscious attention, it can become the infamous ENFP Te-hammer, and alienate people and destroy good, careful progress.

I have a tenuous relationship with my 4th function (Si). I have a tendency to get frustrated when I have to listen to what feels like too much detail, wanting to skip ahead, but I have found that if I shut myself up for a minute and listen, then I learn things. It's hard to stop the Ne-jumps, though... my mind wants to race ahead to the "inevitable" conclusions instead of hanging out in detail - but the downside of that is that if I did engage Si more, my Ne would reach more refined and accurate conclusions, instead of the wild, fatalistic leaps it can, at times, take.

Essentially, when I am engaging Si and Te appropriately, I become more productive, more organized, more aware, and more accurate. So, yes, it would make me a better individual to work on these!

This is pretty much it in regards to Te. Even when I'm wielding it clumsily, I feel mighty! Then I notice all the damage around me. When my Fi was a sickly mewling, I'd get caught in Ne Te loops.. those felt oppressive and panic inducing.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I'm working on developing both the 3rd and 4th functions. It makes me a more well-rounded individual and less stuck. It can be awkward, particularly with the 4th function and I've had embarrassing moments due to lack of attention and paying attention to the wrong stuff. I think that's one advantage of getting older- you become more balanced and less one-sided in your personality.
I have read this assertion in many places, but my personal experience has been almost the opposite. The older I get, the more I find myself relying comfortably (and successfully) on primarly dom/aux. I understand intellectually the benefit of developing the other functions more, I just don't do it, or see it play out in my own life.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
I have read this assertion in many places, but my personal experience has been almost the opposite. The older I get, the more I find myself relying comfortably (and successfully) on primarly dom/aux. I understand intellectually the benefit of developing the other functions more, I just don't do it, or see it play out in my own life.
I agree with you. It seems the more rigid people tend to be to 40+ in my experience. Not necessarily closed minded but more or less, the comfort of having stability and routine that have worked for them in their success. Sometimes it just takes a lot more time and effort to work on "improving" so the costs seem to outweigh the benefits.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
I have read this assertion in many places, but my personal experience has been almost the opposite. The older I get, the more I find myself relying comfortably (and successfully) on primarly dom/aux. I understand intellectually the benefit of developing the other functions more, I just don't do it, or see it play out in my own life.
I agree with you. It seems the more rigid people tend to be to 40+ in my experience. Not necessarily closed minded but more or less, the comfort of having stability and routine that have worked for them in their success. Sometimes it just takes a lot more time and effort to work on "improving" so the costs seem to outweigh the benefits.

On my part, I am slowly trying to work my Se. It helps me to be more engaged in the world and be more in the moment. In the relief spot, I am interested in asthetics and I become highly observant about people and my environment. However, it still seems pretty weak on me. In order of strength my functions seem to be Fe>Ni>Ti>Se (although it's definitely my relief function). Just relying FeNi creates a delusional world.
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
I agree with you. It seems the more rigid people tend to be to 40+ in my experience. Not necessarily closed minded but more or less, the comfort of having stability and routine that have worked for them in their success. Sometimes it just takes a lot more time and effort to work on "improving" so the costs seem to outweigh the benefits.

On my part, I am slowly trying to work my Se. It helps me to be more engaged in the world and be more in the moment. In the relief spot, I am interested in asthetics and I become highly observant about people and my environment. However, it still seems pretty weak on me. In order of strength my functions seem to be Fe>Ni>Ti>Se (although it's definitely my relief function). Just relying FeNi creates a delusional world.

Those rigid old folks you mentioned tend to the the cranky type who are annoyed by something all the time and try to find something to nag about constantly because of their inner dissatisfaction.
 

StephMC

Controlled Mischief
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
1,044
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I have read this assertion in many places, but my personal experience has been almost the opposite. The older I get, the more I find myself relying comfortably (and successfully) on primarly dom/aux. I understand intellectually the benefit of developing the other functions more, I just don't do it, or see it play out in my own life.

That's really interesting. I was hoping to get the other perspecitve when I made this thread. You don't feel like Fi just pops out sporadically (and sometimes in a negative way) if you don't try to "practice" using it?
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
That's really interesting. I was hoping to get the other perspecitve when I made this thread. You don't feel like Fi just pops out sporadically (and sometimes in a negative way) if you don't try to "practice" using it?
I won't claim it doesn't. To be honest, I'm not sure I would know how to recognize that. I do recognize more positive manifestations of what I think is Fi, as when something strikes me as wrong simply on principle. I wonder if I have just become better at suppressing Fi overall rather than learning to integrate it more productively. I really would like to learn how to do this.
 

StephMC

Controlled Mischief
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
1,044
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I won't claim it doesn't. To be honest, I'm not sure I would know how to recognize that. I do recognize more positive manifestations of what I think is Fi, as when something strikes me as wrong simply on principle. I wonder if I have just become better at suppressing Fi overall rather than learning to integrate it more productively. I really would like to learn how to do this.

Kind of what sparked all my curiosity in this was I had my random desires to "work" on my Fe... well, probably due to stress. But anyways, it reminded me of a really neat website I ran into a few years back. I spent a while looking for it, and finally discovered it was no longer up. However... I did find a cached version... hopefully this one doesn't disappear anytime soon. :)

http://web.archive.org/web/20101218...ow_to_Experience_Different_Function-Attitudes

I think one thing to keep in mind is that this isn't going to magically help you "develop" functions. However, I think it will help you start recognizing them -- in yourself and others. I think that's just the first step.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you? I'm curious about how different age groups feel about the topic.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I have seen this reference before, but didn't realize it was no longer readily available. The Fi section (my tertiary) includes:

As you come across the action of any mammal engaged in any activity (including humans), say to yourself, "He/she is feeling ______ because he is needing ______" and fill in the blanks. Guess the mammal's emotion as accurately as you can, by paying close attention to every detail of its behavior and trying to imagine what emotion that you might feel if you were that kind of mammal and acting that way. Guess the need by intuiting the inner calling of the animal that is emerging in the way it's responding to its environment, by recalling a similar need of your own. For example, if you see a Scotty dog sniffing around at a new suitcase, you might guess, "He is feeling apprehensive because he has a need to know he's safe." Or you might guess, "He is feeling curious because he has a need to learn all about the world around him." It depends unpredictably on exactly what you really observe. Key is to watch the mammal extremely closely, so your guess emerges spontaneously from empathizing, and not, say, by consciously reasoning on the basis of something you've read. Your guess must come from the fact that you yourself genuinely feel it. It must come from the heart.
First, I thought Fi was about internal feelings, not trying to decipher the feelings of others. Second, I have always been horrible at deciphering others' feelings, and usually am wrong. This has indeed caused me to consider such information unreliable, and to do exactly what the quote describes: conscious reasoning based on observation plus acquired knowledge.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
School me. What are you thoughts on your 3rd function? Is it "good" to develop, or is it a stressful an event? I'm just curious on what everyone's take is on that.

While you're at it, what about your 4th function? Do you desire to develop it more? Would it make you a more developed individual if you did develop your 3rd and 4th functions?


I've always appreciated the help my tertiary Ni offers, and I really always have always aspired to my 4th function, Fe. A few years ago I read a little bit about Lenore Thomson's tertiary temptation theory, and was just briefly reminded of it yesterday. She seems to bastardize the third function... or maybe I'm just misinterpreting that :huh:

It might sound a little judgmental, but I've always got an immature vibe from people that use solely their first two functions, with no real signs of developing anything else... especially when their first function looks like a dominating overlord. Thoughts?


I don’t think she’s bastardizing the use of tertiary, I think instead she explains how we can be drawn to it a little too much and consequently not rely on the aux as much as we should to balance out E/I within ourselves. Introverts will over-introvert and extraverts will over-extravert. According to Thomson, when that happens- relying too much on the tertiary and not enough on the auxiliary- the inferior function starts to have a latent but pressing influence on judgment through unconscious impulses. So the ‘tertiary temptation’ is about relying on the tertiary so much that a person either becomes over-extraverted or over-introverted, but otherwise Thomson says ‘using’ the tertiary in proportion is a good thing. (And ‘tertiary temptation’ is different from the theories about how tertiary ‘develops’ in a person’s mid thirties and the inferior supposedly develops after that? I really can’t remember the details but the supposed ‘natural development’ of the tert & aux is a separate issue.)

I personally don’t give much weight to most shadow theories- it seems like people have a tendency to cram their experiences into the boxes to fit different theories in such a way that just about anything can be made to look ‘true’ (and/or cram their observations about others' experiences in such a way to explain how someone else is in 'shadow mode' *eye roll*), but I don’t find most theories to actually consistently reveal some truth about the experience of being human. I do find some lasting and consistent truth to this ‘tertiary temptation’ though, in that there does seem to be a pattern of people developing certain blind spots according to their mbti type because of it.
 

StephMC

Controlled Mischief
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
1,044
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I don’t think she’s bastardizing the use of tertiary, I think instead she explains how we can be drawn to it a little too much and consequently not rely on the aux as much as we should to balance out E/I within ourselves. Introverts will over-introvert and extraverts will over-extravert. According to Thomson, when that happens- relying too much on the tertiary and not enough on the auxiliary- the inferior function starts to have a latent but pressing influence on judgment through unconscious impulses. So the ‘tertiary temptation’ is about relying on the tertiary so much that a person either becomes over-extraverted or over-introverted, but otherwise Thomson says ‘using’ the tertiary in proportion is a good thing. (And ‘tertiary temptation’ is different from the theories about how tertiary ‘develops’ in a person’s mid thirties and the inferior supposedly develops after that? I really can’t remember the details but the supposed ‘natural development’ of the tert & aux is a separate issue.)

I personally don’t give much weight to most shadow theories- it seems like people have a tendency to cram their experiences into the boxes to fit different theories in such a way that just about anything can be made to look ‘true’ (and/or cram their observations about others' experiences in such a way to explain how someone else is in 'shadow mode' *eye roll*), but I don’t find most theories to actually consistently reveal some truth about the experience of being human. I do find some lasting and consistent truth to this ‘tertiary temptation’ though, in that there does seem to be a pattern of people developing certain blind spots according to their mbti type because of it.

That was a great explanation, thank you :) It makes sense when put in that light. I do get a little caught up in Ni sometimes, and neglect Se. I think a balanced growth of both make a lot of sense.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
I sometimes use Ti as a comfortable alternative to all the Ni-Fe. It's what I lean on to calm down and move forward. I guess Se plays a similar role, it's just harder to tap into and doesn't take the reigns as frequently.
 
Top