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Thread: Fe at it's best

  1. #21
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I don't see Fe operating on some big community level. I see "community" merely as the group situation of the time. And the strong Fe types contributing the most energy to the emotional atmosphere. It isn't about any specific form of ethics, but their range of expression. I guess some could be Mother Teresa, but I don't think it needs a moral bent. I find Fe "ethics" concerned more with who's off to the side, or not acting as fluttery as they are. That's their ethics. And if you don't do it, or throw a wrench into the emotional enjoyment of the group, then they judge as you "weird" or an asshole. This could be in a big communal situation, but could merely be at a bar with a bunch of people, and not having fun with them. To them, it wouldn't be right to say what you think. That's Fe ethics in a day to day sense. If we're going to talk about something big like Martin Luther King Jr. or something, I have no problem with that. He was cool. But functions don't play out on these big, meaningful global levels all the time.

  2. #22
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Fe at its core helps people who are lost to find their way back to the community they long to be a part of. It is also the ultimate weapon in solidarity actions.

    In fact, the Fe mantra would be: Many hands make light work.

    Fe unifies people like no other in a common goal, a common good and gives them a place to belong, and to find meaning in their lives.

    One on one Fe is a utilitarian type of morality, imho. I help you when you are in trouble because I know you will do the same for me if Im down on my luck. And its not done as self-preservation but out of genuine sympathy. Fe in people helps out others with action, lightening their burden. It creates security and stability within a group of very diverse people who all have their own agenda to attend to as well, yet somehow manages to inspire the very best in those people. It gets them to see the bigger picture, not just their own petty wants.

    At the top of its strength, Fe is great at making the best of the diverse skills mankind has to offer and putting them towards something that will benefit all of them, recognizing each individual for their contribution within the common goal.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  3. #23
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I don't see Fe operating on some big community level. I see "community" merely as the group situation of the time. And the strong Fe types contributing the most energy to the emotional atmosphere. It isn't about any specific form of ethics, but their range of expression. I guess some could be Mother Teresa, but I don't think it needs a moral bent. I find Fe "ethics" concerned more with who's off to the side, or not acting as fluttery as they are. That's their ethics. And if you don't do it, or throw a wrench into the emotional enjoyment of the group, then they judge as you "weird" or an asshole. This could be in a big communal situation, but could merely be at a bar with a bunch of people, and not having fun with them. To them, it wouldn't be right to say what you think. That's Fe ethics in a day to day sense. If we're going to talk about something big like Martin Luther King Jr. or something, I have no problem with that. He was cool. But functions don't play out on these big, meaningful global levels all the time.
    Still I wouldnt think that Fe is a measurement for group dynamics only. As a sole function per persona it is indeed a wish for harmony first. The problem is the more harmony hungry you are the lesser you can tolerate troublemakers and thats when left-wing activists become no different than right-wing activists.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #24
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Still I wouldnt think that Fe is a measurement for group dynamics only. As a sole function per persona it is indeed a wish for harmony first. The problem is the more harmony hungry you are the lesser you can tolerate troublemakers and thats when left-wing activists become no different than right-wing activists.
    I think some can tolerate troublemakers fine. As long as said troublemaker dominates the "group". For example, I went on a date with an ENFJ (at least she tested that way), and at one time, she had told me she had some attraction to "gangster whiteboys" in the past. We kind of laughed about it. She said she grew out of it. We went out though, and she wanted to meet with some friends. At first, it just seemed like a quiet group... but lo and behold, one of the so called "gangster whiteboys" actually showed up. He was some old friend of hers. I don't know if you know the type, but they're usually blowhard ESTPs who talk like their inner city African Americans. I stood back and kind of laughed. I decided to cut the date short. She forgot everything she said before and transformed right before my eyes. She was all about feeding her Fe and expressiveness into that situation, because everyone else was enjoying themselves. And I'm the "troublemaker" for simply having the presence of mind to be consistent. It doesn't matter who's actually "dangerous". I think Ni Fe at least can go along with many things.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I don't see Fe operating on some big community level. I see "community" merely as the group situation of the time. And the strong Fe types contributing the most energy to the emotional atmosphere. It isn't about any specific form of ethics, but their range of expression. I guess some could be Mother Teresa, but I don't think it needs a moral bent. I find Fe "ethics" concerned more with who's off to the side, or not acting as fluttery as they are. That's their ethics. And if you don't do it, or throw a wrench into the emotional enjoyment of the group, then they judge as you "weird" or an asshole. This could be in a big communal situation, but could merely be at a bar with a bunch of people, and not having fun with them. To them, it wouldn't be right to say what you think. That's Fe ethics in a day to day sense. If we're going to talk about something big like Martin Luther King Jr. or something, I have no problem with that. He was cool. But functions don't play out on these big, meaningful global levels all the time.
    Why are you turning an "Fe at its best" thread into another "Let's have a moan about Fe" thread? You have dozens of those to choose from already. (And I am sure I just made this comment because of my Fe.)

    I think you are oversimplifying things. I certainly have strong Fe but was brought up in a culture (Germany) where it is more important to be honest than to be polite, people value authenticity and are okay with someone speaking their mind even if they might come across as rude. Now I am living in a culture (England) where it is more important to be polite than to be honest, people are certainly more refined than Germans in their interactions and always know the polite thing to say but after a while I realised that they don't necessarily mean most of what they say, it's just a social facade to keep social cohesion.

    As a result even though I really value what I would call "authentic Fe" for its warmth, care and graciousness in difficult situations I am incredibly frustrated by the overly polite, fake Fe I am seeing all around me where I am living now, it actually makes me want to stab myself with a pen knife and say something really rude just to get a rise out of people. And people who simply say what no one else dares to say (in general ExTPs) get an internal high-five from me.

  6. #26
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    Why are you turning an "Fe at its best" thread into another "Let's have a moan about Fe" thread?
    Where I was moaning? lol. I'm just bringing some balance. Fe isn't the Mother Teresa function.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Where I was moaning? lol. I'm just bringing some balance. Fe isn't the Mother Teresa function.
    We had loads of threads to work that out already.

  8. #28
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    We had loads of threads to work that out already.
    Oh well. I doubt I'll cause a massive derail or anything. Don't worry about it. Besides, I'm just pointing out Fe's extraverted nature. It adjusts dynamically. It is not a worldview in and of itself. If anything, a worldview would be the Fe type's introversion at play. This would give shape and form to their "morals". And I guess this is the best way for one to be at their "best". Someone mentioned MLK earlier. The things that stand out about him is how he saw where the world was heading ("I have a dream"). His Fe was a vehicle he used to impact others with. His sense of inflection, poetry, etc.. But the "Dream", the new racially neutral world he wanted, was an uplifting form of Ni. Not Fe.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I don't see Fe operating on some big community level. [...]
    I get the point that you’re making in this post and your subsequent posts. ISTPs are Fe-users; it’s your Inferior function. You’re naturally going to be cognizant of Fe on a daily level, but mainly in a negative sense, i.e., how it excludes you from this or that specific group, or how it makes you different from other people who might have better Fe than yours.

    But I just want to reiterate my own point as a rebuttal of sorts:

    For me, as a total non-Fe user, finally paying attention to Fe rules is like discovering a secret code; it’s like a dyslexic person discovering the alphabet and the rules of grammar. People were always just a mystery and a frustration to me. I was dyslexic about people: Although I moved among them, at times it seemed like every enoounter was fraught with tension and fear of the unknown. I just couldn’t fathom the rules that guided encounters with groups and even individuals. (In my daily interactions with people I was just sort of "improvising" as I went along, with mixed results from one encounter to the next.)

    So in that sense, for me Fe does indeed “operate on some big community level.” For someone like me, who is really paying attention to Fe for the first time and taking notes, it’s like a codebook that reveals all the secrets: All of a sudden I’ve got access to human society in a guilt-free, anxiety-free way. It’s a first for me, and a big revelation.

    I don’t know or care about Mother Theresa or MLK; I’m not interested in whether Fe turns people into saints or devils. I’m just talking about studying Fe rules as a discipline and then taking those rules on faith and applying them and finding that they really do work when it comes to interacting with people. After a lifetime of trepidation and anxiety in dealing with people, it’s almost amazing--Fe really does work!

  10. #30
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    Why are you turning an "Fe at its best" thread into another "Let's have a moan about Fe" thread? You have dozens of those to choose from already. (And I am sure I just made this comment because of my Fe.)

    I think you are oversimplifying things. I certainly have strong Fe but was brought up in a culture (Germany) where it is more important to be honest than to be polite, people value authenticity and are okay with someone speaking their mind even if they might come across as rude. Now I am living in a culture (England) where it is more important to be polite than to be honest, people are certainly more refined than Germans in their interactions and always know the polite thing to say but after a while I realised that they don't necessarily mean most of what they say, it's just a social facade to keep social cohesion.

    As a result even though I really value what I would call "authentic Fe" for its warmth, care and graciousness in difficult situations I am incredibly frustrated by the overly polite, fake Fe I am seeing all around me where I am living now, it actually makes me want to stab myself with a pen knife and say something really rude just to get a rise out of people. And people who simply say what no one else dares to say (in general ExTPs) get an internal high-five from me.
    Didnt you just ranted yourself ?

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I think some can tolerate troublemakers fine. As long as said troublemaker dominates the "group". For example, I went on a date with an ENFJ (at least she tested that way), and at one time, she had told me she had some attraction to "gangster whiteboys" in the past. We kind of laughed about it. She said she grew out of it. We went out though, and she wanted to meet with some friends. At first, it just seemed like a quiet group... but lo and behold, one of the so called "gangster whiteboys" actually showed up. He was some old friend of hers. I don't know if you know the type, but they're usually blowhard ESTPs who talk like their inner city African Americans. I stood back and kind of laughed. I decided to cut the date short. She forgot everything she said before and transformed right before my eyes. She was all about feeding her Fe and expressiveness into that situation, because everyone else was enjoying themselves. And I'm the "troublemaker" for simply having the presence of mind to be consistent. It doesn't matter who's actually "dangerous". I think Ni Fe at least can go along with many things.
    I do understand you, not only literally but I've made those experiences as well.

    I think at this point its only a definition thing. Some say Fe is about "adapting to the rules", some say "its about adapting to the group dynamics". For the former one the question can be raised: what are the rules ? Since Fe is per definition a archetypical personality function, what would an Fe user in a vacuum be ? Were no rules can be adapted to, adapting to rules is impossible.
    Some people quickly open the can in which you start mixing "Fe traits" with "religious traits" in special western world religious views. Thats when it gets really nasty. I guess its a bane of Fe users, like the bane of strong analytical people is to be called emotionless.

    The other thing about "Fe is adapting to the group dynamics" is a thing that can be disproven by the two of us. I found what @FineLine said regarding Fe being an inferior function for istp and thats the reason you handle it wrongly, not fair nor right. The thing is FineLine you said that you yourself have adapted to Fe-styles and now live better with that, but you do not have any Fe at all. ISTPs have Fe and they show it a lot, without the need for adapting. If you maybe think of the best Jackie Chan films, under the premise he would be an istp, then that sort of caring nature he has, is the Fe expression of inferior F. A better example would be Rocky with Sylvester Stallone. He always played that hard italian dude but had a soft spot. Or Bud Spencer...
    Of course those are fictional but I know istps who are like that in real life and in their ways to treat people they are always fair and that automatically. In fact istps have a strong demand for respecting each others in a group, respecting individuality and staying fair. Thats one of the strongest Fe expressions there is and thats tho, like you said istps only have inferior Fe.

    What KDude said here, I can perfectly understand. He was disappointed because a person he trusted disappointed him. For that you dont need to be an Fe user, thats a thing anybody would ever want, disregardless of his type. Then again "group dynamics" isnt really Fe. I mean the nazis in WWII demanded certain group dynamics but the dynamics werent at all Fe.

    To me in the most basic sense Fe just means "having the ability to feel like others feel". The majority of Fi users appear egoistic to an Fe user, while the majority of Fe users prolly appears overcaring to Fi users. The key of successful Fe is not to think of yourself allday long but to take the time, imagine how the day or the week was for a friend of yours, imagine what you would feel in that situation and then to treat him like you'ld know how he feels. That needs a lot of practice or talent but makes life a lot easier for you.
    Still as it is with all things the balance is key, being too altruistic does help noone. And Fe users have troubles solving their own problems or thinking deeply about emotions, analyzing them, picking them apart. For that a Fi user is the way better chef.

    So bottom line, Fe to me aint about rules or regulations or religion or group dynamics, it is first of all the ability to being able to truly feel like another person would and being able to anticipate what he'ld like from you now. Every other interpretation is lifting the Fe function to a level when it becomes torn-apart for some sorts of dogmae.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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