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  1. #11
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    This rings true for me. My mom never understood how I completed half of my assignments on time. She always thought because I never had anything typed days in advance that I wasn't working on it. She didn't realize that I was mulling over thoughts and ideas in my head. If I were to actually write or type anything out in advance... It would end up being scratched out or deleted a million times. So I just hold off and keep everything in my head until I've got a good starting point... Once I get to that point it all seems to just flow freely.

    I definitely never put in the amount of studying that my J friends did in school. For every 3 hours of studying they put in, I probably put in 1 hour.... I always ended up scoring about the same as they did on tests. For some people studying long hours works, for me it does not! The longer I study, the more likely I am to screw up.


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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I like how it explains how this is not a flaw in managing time & accomplishing things, but just a different way. The commonly promoted way of managing time is the Je way, which tends to view the Pe way negatively, as disorganized or chaotic or even lazy, when it's not really any of those things. I find the Je way suffocating & unnecessarily stressful....not to mention, just plain unproductive & inefficient for me.
    Yes. Doing it the Je way results in me forcibly sitting in front of a computer with little to no accomplishment, and completely sapped creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I won't detail my frustrations with this "Je way", but I will say I've often felt like I'm working the system, taking advantage of loopholes, & pushing boundaries a bit in an effort to work in the way that I am most efficient. I made it through school with excellent grades & have been valued at most of my jobs doing this, but it's somewhat annoying that I can't just openly work in the way that brings the positive results I'm rewarded/valued for. It's like you have put on some dumb charade of playing their little work structure game, while giving them the finger behind their back .
    ..
    This is spot on for me as well, in both work, home, and school. The exceptions were two sups, an ENFP (best boss eva) and an INTJ previously mentioned who left me alone to do it however I wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Optimizing it means taking FULL advantage of those bursts when they come about, and also figuring out what are good go-to triggers for these (because there ARE consistent triggers). You also have to set communication boundaries with people, so they don't interrupt your "flow". You have to work out what kind of breaks refresh & inspire vs distract or feel like an "end".
    It sounds a bit on the pathetic side, but I’ve found one of my “triggers” for these creative/product bursts is praise and validation of how I function and the work it produces. As you mentioned, most people tend to view this style negatively, and what I’ve heard most of my life, despite producing what I would call – not to toot my own horn – but pretty darn awesome work/accomplishments using it, is how I just need to shape up more and be like everyone else. The two sups mentioned above – the ENFP gave me complete creative control, and then went ape with praise when I would present the results. The INTJ was more subdued of course, but still gave me authentic NTish positive feedback and expressed appreciation (which is just as valued to me as NF gushing.) I produced the most and best work I’ve ever done under these two sups, and felt inspired and productive all the time. It’s not just the ability to work how I want to that makes a difference in what I tend to accomplish, it’s also how people tend to perceive it. If I get the impression they like the result but still think there’s something wrong with me, my inspiration and “zone” type functioning take a bit of a nose dive.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The massive, massive advantage is the adaptability& flexibility. When you prefer little structure, you can be tossed into new structures all the time & make it work (as long they don't have a stick up their butt about their structure). The flexibility allows you to take advantage of those bursts when they arrive (I'm pretty sure this is a big part of why Ps dislike too much planning; we don't want to commit to something & then find it interrupts a spontaneous burst of activity that is accomplishing something significant.

    Oh yeah... and being energized in chaotic situations (er, panic) is definitely an awesome skill. It's not even really panic. It's just like an exciting challenge . While other people stress & shut down, I'm problem solving & wrapping it all up.
    At home, this is one of the biggest differences between my ESTJ and myself. He is much better about incremental, organized, methodically taking care of business. I tend to work in bursts. In day to day life, his approach is “better." But in a crisis or unplanned situation, he shuts down. It’s quite twilight zony, because in day to day life, he’s the obvious competent leader and gives directives, corrections, lectures, etc. But in a crisis or any unplanned situation, the roles are completely flipped, and he becomes deer-in-the-headlights type quiet and responsive to what I say to do. I’m the type if you dropped me in the middle of the wilderness with a backpack and a few bottles of water, I’d roll. I’d figure it out. Whereas he would sit down and perhaps go catatonic.

  3. #13
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    I see posts waxing enthusiastic about the merits of procrastination. That’s fine; it’s nice to be validated. But it’s also important to remember the negatives.

    First off, the excerpts quoted in the OP only seem to deal with procrastination and the work process. That’s only one facet of Perceiving. I don’t know if the article goes into other facets; I’m not subscribed to the magazine.

    Second, procrastination is fine in high school and even acceptable in college. But it’s less tenable in work, where projects may be big and other people are waiting on you to pass the project to the next person in the pipeline, or where the quality required of the work doesn’t allow for a quick-and-dirty catch-up effort.

    Third and most importantly:

    Unconstrained Time - [...] As the quantity of time decreases, the rate of thought and action increases.
    I think that the single biggest drawback to the Perceiver approach is: Are you really living up to your full potential if you need a gun to your head (a deadline, that is) in order to get up off the couch? It’s a reactive way of living, i.e., letting outside things like deadlines determine whether you act or not.

    As a procrastinator, for years I had lots of to-do lists full of things to do; they languished because they weren’t subject to deadlines. And if I only did things when they became emergencies, then life became a game of crisis management--pulling all-nighters, high levels of stress on big projects, staying up all night before a cross-country drive at the start of vacation in order to get the bills paid and finish up last-minute projects, etc.

    The procrastinating lifestyle has its strengths when it comes to execution. But it’s in non-execution where it falls apart. One needs to be proactive at times (act on your environment rather than vice versa) to live up to one’s full potential. And that’s the province of the Judging functions.

    /fly in the ointment

  4. #14
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Second, procrastination is fine in high school and even acceptable in college. But it’s less tenable in work, where projects may be big and other people are waiting on you to pass the project to the next person in the pipeline, or where the quality required of the work doesn’t allow for a quick-and-dirty catch-up effort.
    Really, it works very well when you are catching up for other people. As a graphic designer, I find myself doing this a lot, and I'm often the last stop before something goes to print or online. The sales/ad people (many of whom are ExxPs, haha) would come in at zero hour with jobs for me & I'd have to make up lost time.

    And it's not "quick & dirty" when there's no quality loss. I think that's a big part of the point - if quality is not sacrificed & deadlines are met, then what is the problem?

    A problem is the idea that quality only comes from a steady, incremental style. This is VERY Te, which measures things in impersonal, external units (ie. TIME). The more time it takes, the more valuable it must be, right? NO.

    I think that the single biggest drawback to the Perceiver approach is: Are you really living up to your full potential if you need a gun to your head (a deadline, that is) in order to get up off the couch? It’s a reactive way of living, i.e., letting outside things like deadlines determine whether you act or not.

    As a procrastinator, for years I had lots of to-do lists full of things to do; they languished because they weren’t subject to deadlines. And if I only did things when they became emergencies, then life became a game of crisis management--pulling all-nighters, high levels of stress on big projects, staying up all night before a cross-country drive at the start of vacation in order to get the bills paid and finish up last-minute projects, etc.

    The procrastinating lifestyle has its strengths when it comes to execution. But it’s in non-execution where it falls apart. One needs to be proactive at times (act on your environment rather than vice versa) to live up to one’s full potential. And that’s the province of the Judging functions.

    /fly in the ointment

    I agree there are major drawbacks, which is why I said, "There are still problems to this of course, and many unrelated to merely being Je conflicts...". However, there are major drawbacks to the Je way, and this is discussed waaaaay loss often except in the cutesy "I'm so perfect my only problem is being too perfect" manner. We have to defend the Pe way, because it's the one that is dismissed as lesser. Ideally, the two can really complement each other (as @Mia. touches on in her example of her ESTJ husband & her in chaotic/unstructured situations).

    I wouldn't say that P is entirely for "procrastination" and I don't think that's even what they article is entirely describing. The article is describing a process that is largely mental up until a final burst of energy where the mental work is finally manifested as something tangible. The devaluation of that mental work is sad to me....why are we calling it procrastination in every instance when it can lead to quality results?

    I remember @Seymour once talking before about problem solving almost unconsciously (and this is likely more applicable to Ne types, as-is mental work which looks like procrastination) while daydreaming or doing something unrelated. This "messing around" is really a part of the process, a process which yields equal results to the slow/steady pace of the Je types.

    I'll also say that Je types can have procrastination issues also, but for different reasons, and it plays out differently. And I'll go ahead & say it - they can have serious fails in innovation & quality, possibly more so than Pe types. They often use routine to create a reliable work flow, but doing it the same way can lead to the same results over & over.... and quality can get diminished as little steps get glossed over from the sheer monotony of it, or in becoming overconfident/too comfortable with the routine.

    The problem with Pe, as you say, is the need for the gun to the head & when that is no longer inspiring & exciting but stressful or unproductive. The need for deadlines is big, because, as the article notes too, there is basically a poor sense of time passing, and a deadline suddenly gives you a sense of time by putting markers up for you. Again, I see this particularly applicable to Ne types, notorious for being absent-minded. In some ways, I NEED an existing structure to "work around". It's kind of like how people say Ne works outside the box, but we almost need the box too, or else it's just too open-ended & the mental exploring process will go on forever.

    However, I also feel like I am more burdened by the monotony of routine than I am by a slightly chaotic lifestyle. Ideally, there's a balance (probably for Je types too), but I can't say I necessarily feel stressed in a negative way when I'm working off the cuff. I need just a certain amount of structure to anchor me, but it doesn't take too much beyond that for me to feel repressed, not motivated.

    I remember reading an interview with a musician (I want to say it was Jack White of the White Stripes; most certainly an ISxP) and he was saying how it's important for him to give himself restrictions when writing new music, and that sometimes the narrower the restrictions, the more creative he gets. Without any restrictions, then he gets stuck or things become bloated as too many ideas go into it. It's a form of editing to have initial restrictions, especially if you're not one who likes to go back & edit when it's finished. Lack of any restrictions or structure can lead to either no results or something overwrought too.

    I've also seen on design TV shows (Project Runyway or whatever) where a super talented P suddenly fails massively because they were given a "do whatever you want" challenge. This is very illustrative to me of the P mindset & the challenge faced when things are too open-ended. This is a problem with the P mindset, yes.

    As much as I might bag on Je structures, I think they are complementary as long as they function as a sort of flexible framework, an initial sketch of a plan,
    nothing rigid or oppressive or which must be followed to the letter. It becomes a starting point, a way of limiting the endless possibilities a Ne type might see & waste time mulling over, and it provides the time constraints needed to even have a sense of time passing or to see time as something measurable which can impact you.

    I admit I find it really, really hard to create my own structure. I have a high level of self-motivation with just the tiniest bit of structure, but I have trouble creating even the tiniest bit of structure. I think this is due to the nature of Pe types to create structure internally (Ji), which is why projects are structured mentally & not in visible, external steps. It's also a matter of experiencing the external as objective, as separate from you, something incidental you work around/with, not something you can determine yourself. If you DO determine it yourself, then you'll experience it as "not real", or not a part of the objective, external, which makes it lose its urgency because it's something you can too easily reshape & extend - in short, there are no real consequences to it. Even if you create bad consequences, then you know you can take them away!

    Mia mentions positive comments as being really good motivators... I also find focusing on positive consequences over negative ones to work better for self-motivation. If I focus on how finishing a boring task first will maximize the pleasure of my goofing off time afterwards, then I'm more likely to do it than to just skip to goofing off & avoiding the task. This doesn't always work, and it takes focus & self-control, but hey, those are precisely what need to be developed in Pe types.

    Learning to create your own structure, one which feels REAL, is the main challenge, IMO. This is why I was mentioning finding some go-to motivators, some ways to turn on your own "act button" instead of needing for something to spontaneously press it. I'm pretty sure Dario Nardi's study mentioned this as a Ne issue - learning how to put yourself in the creative zone instead of just waiting for it to strike you. In the meantime, before you learn to harness & lead your own creative energy, you have to work around existing external structures the best you can or seek out ones which work with your style instead of hampering it.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #15
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Wow... great to see the responses! Glad it resonated for some other folks. Good stuff!

    I think for myself some lessons I've learned in trying to work with my perceiving style:

    • Finding ways to trigger interest and flow is good. I'll sometimes set a ridiculously minor goal for the day for myself when starting a project, to try to get my interest and focus to catch. It's not really Je planning, since what I focus on for the day depends entirely on the current circumstances, but it's more than waiting for inspiration to strike.
    • Non-catastrophic procrastination requires good estimation. That is, if something turns out to be much harder/larger/more-time-consuming than one thought, discovering that at the last minute is a real problem.
    • One's own personal deadline may need to be well before the calendar deadline, in order to coordinate with other people. One may need to create an "artificial" deadline and treat it seriously.
    • Downtime is required after a big push. If there's been a stressful deadline and I've really pushed myself, there will be a period afterwards where work seems unimportant and I feel under motivated. That's okay, and is just part of the cycle (as long I meet my commitments).


    There are some limitations to a Pe time management (or lack thereof) style, too:

    • There is never going to be a "right time" for some important (but not urgent) things. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go against your natural inclinations and get things done.
    • Sometimes, the appearance (and often substance) of minimal Je performance is required. Fighting the system directly is usually a losing proposition. Be realistic about when you have to change your style, and when you can fly underneath the radar and still be successful.
    • Not everything is worth doing well. Somethings it's okay to slop through. Don't let perfectionism fuel procrastination about unimportant things.
    • It's not healthy staying in crisis mode all the time, so don't give into that temptation. Being an adrenaline junkie is not sustainable over the long term.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    When I work on something that affects primarily myself, this is the way I operate. I identify strongly with the entire work process as outlined above.
    Actually, that's kind of reassuring. Your scary productivity on the remodeling front (for example) intimidates me... as I've said before, you are much more Te-enabled than I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thoughts on the topic:

    1.) The Je approach was one that was always held as the vaunted standard from my scholastic years. I was very impressionable as a young person, believed this was the "best" way to study, and tried to emulate it. Despite that, in school I would still (almost without exception) wait until the last minute, do the work and succeed. I had an English professor in university who told me, "You write best when you don't try to think your way to the end, you just write." Still, I felt very lazy being this way, and felt I was judged critically for not appearing "organized". In my twenties, I actually went to a time management consultant and learned how to structure my time very much in the Je way. I had schedules mapped out managing every hour of every day, free time built into that even. It's never been a great fit for me though, never one that I could make work long-term, although in truth I can get a lot of stuff accomplished, a prodigious amount even. Is it my best fit, do I get as much pleasure out of stuff? No. I just cannot work as effectively that way, compartmentalize my time that way (schedule relaxation even, fun?) Nope. I used to have the most elaborate beautiful schedules though ...
    I think I'm more resistant than you are to scheduling, lists, etc... I'm certainly not saying that my resistance is healthy. I find adherence to such structure really saps my motivation. I can buckle down and work through a backlog of tedious chores, but it's better for me that work is intense and of a short duration.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    2.) I grew up in a very work-centric environment, and got married relatively young and started a family right after that. I haven't really had much luxury to work in my preferred mode. I have so much to do, and I don't feel like I can just wait until inspiration hits, the "right" time. So, with a heavily structured childhood full of farm work, and then an entry into motherhood by 22, it didn't matter much what I wanted to do, I have always felt like I have had to take care of my family as best as I can, do all of the work that goes along with that role. That was my motivation to try to be more organized, and that being organized was "the answer". So, when people rely on me, I have to just keep going, I just have to adopt a day to day to day approach. I wish things could get done faster, I get discouraged and annoyed when I have long term projects where I can only measure progress eked out bit by bit.
    I think I grew up in a similarly SJ-ish environment, but admittedly not with farm responsibilities. Still, not being a parent makes it more possible to work at my own pace (which is a mixed blessing, I'm sure). And, again, I find micro-scheduling with lots of milestones and metrics to be really soul-killing (and paranoia inducing). As an e5-ish person I want to polish before I present, and as a perceiver I want to optimize for the moment. Too many meetings, milestones and metrics make that difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    3.) I don't know how to reconcile each approach. The best way for me does not seem to readily fit with a.) being an effective wife and mother and b.) being a successful business-person and c.) the way the world works. I haven't figured it out yet ... but I'll let you know if I do! I do find it fatiguing to work against my natural tendencies. I consider myself highly disciplined to be able to do so. But especially now at this point in my life (44), it can feel somewhat oppressive to have to keep operating in such a mode. I have to be careful to try to balance myself. Otherwise, it takes so much time each day to decompress. I spend the evening just vegging out instead of using it as productive and enjoyable personal time.
    The business world is definitely Je dominate, and increasingly Te dominant as one moves up the hierarchy. I think it pays to understand that (as you clearly do) and figure out ways to avoiding working directly against the system... although ignoring or subverting the system works well in some cases. I feel the idea of balance is good, too. One may have to work against one's type, so to speak, but one should be realistic about the personal cost and the limitations of stamina. It's fine if one has to be in Je-mode for 40% of one's work day, but one needs to allow down time to compensate.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I won't detail my frustrations with this "Je way", but I will say I've often felt like I'm working the system, taking advantage of loopholes, & pushing boundaries a bit in an effort to work in the way that I am most efficient. I made it through school with excellent grades & have been valued at most of my jobs doing this, but it's somewhat annoying that I can't just openly work in the way that brings the positive results I'm rewarded/valued for. It's like you have put on some dumb charade of playing their little work structure game, while giving them the finger behind their back .
    Definitely agree with you, there. Being able to minimally comply without giving up is a great practical skill. I think it's easy (at least for Fi folks) to turn a minor issue into a Core Symbol of Giving In to Oppression, when it's actually more beneficial to do what one must on the surface level and move on.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Optimizing it means taking FULL advantage of those bursts when they come about, and also figuring out what are good go-to triggers for these (because there ARE consistent triggers). You also have to set communication boundaries with people, so they don't interrupt your "flow". You have to work out what kind of breaks refresh & inspire vs distract or feel like an "end".
    Agreed, I think there's a big difference between waiting passively vs. doing one's best to trigger creative flow.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The massive, massive advantage is the adaptability& flexibility.
    Also agreed... I'm definitely adaptable to change as it happens. I agree with you that being locked in means you can't optimize as you go, which feels very confining to a perceiver. Doing the non-optimal thing when it makes no sense saps motivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Oh yeah... and being energized in chaotic situations (er, panic) is definitely an awesome skill. It's not even really panic. It's just like an exciting challenge . While other people stress & shut down, I'm problem solving & wrapping it all up.
    I see this with my ISTJ-ish partner. In a stressful situation I become very focused, quick and oddly practical, while he tends to be overwhelmed and freeze.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    There are still problems to this of course, and many unrelated to merely being Je conflicts, but ultimately I feel like I get a lot more done in short amounts of time compared to a lot of people. I also mess around a lot more while they work steadily, but I can't maintain the level of energy I'm at when I get things done. No slow & steady & mapped out work style here... and I think that's pretty typical perceiver....
    I feel like I've gotten better to triggering shorter, smaller bursts of flow over time. I still do love the occasional focused long burn: those times when you are faced when a huge challenge and become focused on a single goal and let everything fall by the wayside. Still, those long burns lead to motivational hang-overs, so I try to trigger shorter bursts when possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I don’t think the material is really saying anything all that new. It’s pretty much part of the standard definition of Perceivers that they prefer work environments requiring flexibility and immediacy and quick turnarounds (like an emergency room in a hospital), whereas Judgers like work environments that favor scheduling and the ability to foresee and plan for the coming workload.
    I agree there's nothing really ground-breaking there, but I thought the descriptions of core principles (arrived at from qualitative research) helped illuminate things from a slightly different angle. Also, showing that such approaches CAN be successful (not that they are appropriate for every situation) was heartening. I think there is value in optimizing one's natural way of working (when appropriate) as opposed to immediately abandoning it for an approach that's likely to be draining and relatively unproductive.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Still, it’s interesting to see how the author broke those Perceiving properties down into specific attributes, i.e., the bulleted points in the final excerpt. In that sense the article perhaps offers something new. Usually the definition of Perceiver is: A lack of those Te/Fe qualities that make a Judger efficient... The article instead attempts to show that the Perceiver is actually using a separate set of skills that Judgers presumably lack in turn. It makes sense of course; I just hadn’t seen it spelled out in this manner.
    Exactly... I think the author (an INFJ) was trying to arrive at a description via research, rather than via MBTI-ish definition. So, I think her description is interesting, although it's important not to over generalize. Her research wasn't quantitive, so it doesn't claim that perceivers are equally successful academically, or even that sticking with perceiving approaches is always the best way to go for perceivers.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Also, the description makes Perceivers sound like adrenaline junkies. And I think that’s true to some extent. Many times in the past I procrastinated with nothing in particular occupying my attention, just stewing in my own juices and waiting until anxiety and adrenaline hit a high enough level to suddenly propel me off the sofa...
    That can happen, but I think you are being unfair here. Just because nothing is happening on the surface, doesn't mean that one isn't processing internally. Conversely, sitting on the coach doesn't mean that one is a Buddha achieving enlightenment while watching "Friends" reruns. Still, my personal experience indicates that time spend taking a shower, for example, can be extremely productive for suddenly generating a novel solution to a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    As for adopting a more J-ish attitude toward work: Yeah, I’ve definitely striven for that. I see it like the Introversion/Extraversion spectrum: One can be an introvert all one’s life, but frankly it makes life a little easier if one invests some effort into learning some extraversion. Similarly, one can procrastinate for a lifetime, but there’s something to be said for learning a little time management.
    Well, I mentioned you specifically because you strike me as someone who has soured somewhat on Pe-oriented (Fi-oriented) approaches, and has striven to adopt a broad Je (Te, your case) approach. I don't think it would be healthy (or optimal) for me to go as far in that direction as you have, but I though your perspective would be interesting. Empirically, I test as strongly preferring P and N, and less strongly (but still clearly) preferring F and I. So an individual's mileage may certainly vary as far as what works for him/her. And again, personal circumstance and personal goals may dictate developing in directions that may not come easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    And if I’m a good at Te/Fe skills, it’s because the skills weren’t learned easily; it took deliberate research and practice to pick up those skills.

    I've done it both ways. For years I worked in an "emergency room" type of environment, with unpredictable amounts and types of high-priority work suddenly thrown at me. And I loved it. But there was still the rest of my life to be handled. You can't use crisis management for everything; you'll end up with burn-out at that rate.
    I find I don't use crisis management often, despite not using a Je-approach. Invoking more mini-flows works better for me than extremely procrastination following by a huge burn. I'm generally very flexible and accomodating at work, but I find avoidable crises to be irritating at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Really, it works very well when you are catching up for other people. As a graphic designer, I find myself doing this a lot, and I'm often the last stop before something goes to print or online. The sales/ad people (many of whom are ExxPs, haha) would come in at zero hour with jobs for me & I'd have to make up lost time.
    I definitely find that having to be ready so other people aren't blocked in their work is a real motivator. Knowing that I'm enabling (in a good way) someone else's work triggers that "near the deadline" focused response in me. If someone wasn't waiting for my work, I think I'd have a harder time with being consistently productive at work.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I remember @Seymour once talking before about problem solving almost unconsciously (and this is likely more applicable to Ne types, as-is mental work which looks like procrastination) while daydreaming or doing something unrelated. This "messing around" is really a part of the process, a process which yields equal results to the slow/steady pace of the Je types.
    Definitely. I think people underestimate the creative and learning potential of "messing around" with something. Learning new software or some other new system during a time crunch is unlikely to be successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The problem with Pe, as you say, is the need for the gun to the head & when that is no longer inspiring & exciting but stressful or unproductive. The need for deadlines is big, because, as the article notes too, there is basically a poor sense of time passing, and a deadline suddenly gives you a sense of time by putting markers up for you. Again, I see this particularly applicable to Ne types, notorious for being absent-minded. In some ways, I NEED an existing structure to "work around". It's kind of like how people say Ne works outside the box, but we almost need the box too, or else it's just too open-ended & the mental exploring process will go on forever.
    [....]
    Exactly! I find external structures and limitations to be helpful, since they force me to focus and produce. If I had no external structures, I would rarely produce anything. An an NE type, seeing so many possibilities without a deadline can lead to paralysis, since there are always more options to consider.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Learning to create your own structure, one which feels REAL, is the main challenge, IMO. This is why I was mentioning finding some go-to motivators, some ways to turn on your own "act button" instead of needing for something to spontaneously press it. I'm pretty sure Dario Nardi's study mentioned this as a Ne issue - learning how to put yourself in the creative zone instead of just waiting for it to strike you. In the meantime, before you learn to harness & lead your own creative energy, you have to work around existing external structures the best you can or seek out ones which work with your style instead of hampering it.
    Right on target, IMHO. I think it's important to realize that external structures can be very helpful, and that one can learn to trigger one's own processes, instead of passively waiting for inspiration.

  6. #16
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I think that the single biggest drawback to the Perceiver approach is: Are you really living up to your full potential if you need a gun to your head (a deadline, that is) in order to get up off the couch? It’s a reactive way of living, i.e., letting outside things like deadlines determine whether you act or not.

    As a procrastinator, for years I had lots of to-do lists full of things to do; they languished because they weren’t subject to deadlines. And if I only did things when they became emergencies, then life became a game of crisis management--pulling all-nighters, high levels of stress on big projects, staying up all night before a cross-country drive at the start of vacation in order to get the bills paid and finish up last-minute projects, etc.

    The procrastinating lifestyle has its strengths when it comes to execution. But it’s in non-execution where it falls apart. One needs to be proactive at times (act on your environment rather than vice versa) to live up to one’s full potential. And that’s the province of the Judging functions.

    /fly in the ointment
    This makes me think about something I read a while back on what researchers have discovered about ADHD. They've found that people that have it, have reduced functioning in their frontal lobe (specifically in the executive functions). This tend to effect how their brain mediates and motivates undesirable tasks, such as: starting and completing tasks, increasing and decreasing focus, maintaining and switching focus etc at the appropriate times. Ordinary people don't consciously access this part of the brain, it mostly just happens automatically, although to them it feels like they are choosing to activate them. For people with ADHD lacking this ability means they have to find other means to control their behaviour. What studies have found is that, when they were forced to undertake undesireable tasks, unexpectedly, the part of the brain that lit up was where emotions are processed, instead of the frontal lobe. In other words, they use emotional motivation to get things done in place of the unconscious drive - feelings like shame, guilt, fear, love, or pride.

    The reason I mention this is that they are discovering now that ADHD exists on spectrum, and the line between "normal" and impairment is kinda hazy. It seems that Perceiving has a degree of overlap with ADHD and that these findings apply to us to some degree (again, also on a spectrum of severity). I think that we are much more emotionally motivated, unlike Judgers who a stronger impersonal motivation system. This explains things like procrastinating finishing an assignment until the very last minute, because you need the motivator of fear or guilt (that comes from the impending deadline) to get you going.

    Personally this describes me rather well - I definitely respond more to emotional motivation. Telling me the facts about why I should do something doesn't hold as much sway over me as guilt or shame.

    Anyway, it's something to think about.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I remember reading an interview with a musician (I want to say it was Jack White of the White Stripes; most certainly an ISxP) and he was saying how it's important for him to give himself restrictions when writing new music, and that sometimes the narrower the restrictions, the more creative he gets. Without any restrictions, then he gets stuck or things become bloated as too many ideas go into it. It's a form of editing to have initial restrictions, especially if you're not one who likes to go back & edit when it's finished. Lack of any restrictions or structure can lead to either no results or something overwrought too.

    I've also seen on design TV shows (Project Runyway or whatever) where a super talented P suddenly fails massively because they were given a "do whatever you want" challenge. This is very illustrative to me of the P mindset & the challenge faced when things are too open-ended. This is a problem with the P mindset, yes.
    Yes, this is a great point; unlimited possibilities can be overwhelming if not paralysing. It's very important to me to have structure and boundaries; I need some parameters so I know how far I can play around within them - and the freedom to play around is important to me.

    And I certainly agree with the Project Runway reference. Watching it, it's incredible how many Ps flourish creatively under the strict time, cost, and design constraints, but absolutely fall apart when they can do whatever they want. I don't know if you watched the last season, but Anya was a prime example of this. As soon as strict controls and deadlines disappeared she became creatively stumped and completely reverted back to the stylistic limitations she had at the beginning. Then in the end she won because of a few things she threw together at the very last minute.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #17
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Don't Js sometimes procrastinate in their own way, though? I think I remember reading about that somewhere, but it's slipped my mind...
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

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    I pulled that off quite often in college! I did it the "P way" almost the whole time there. I am most certainly Je dom. Haha it slightly decreased the GPA but not by much. It's more preferences than what people will actually do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    1.) The Je approach was one that was always held as the vaunted standard from my scholastic years. I was very impressionable as a young person, believed this was the "best" way to study, and tried to emulate it. Despite that, in school I would still (almost without exception) wait until the last minute, do the work and succeed. (...) Is it my best fit, do I get as much pleasure out of stuff? No. I just cannot work as effectively that way, compartmentalize my time that way (schedule relaxation even, fun?) Nope. I used to have the most elaborate beautiful schedules though ...
    By this post you've made me reconsider my whole time management "J" approach. I do manage my time in schedules, but I have a really hard time in following them till the end. They only works for shorts periods of time, because I get bored easily of them. I wish I could be as disciplined as you are, though.
    Even though I try to follow a schedule in my mind, I tend to let everything to the last moment. And I sort of enjoy being able to do it effectively in that short and rushed time. But even that it's sort of planned.

    At this moment of my life, when personal issues are making me being disorganized and messy, I don't feel comfortable in my own skin. I think I'm not getting the results that I want, and it doesn't satisfies me. And my own inefficiency annoys me.

    Can people behave like a "J" but really be a "P" instead? and vice versa?


    Where could I read some beginners articles about this? And also about the how the E/I dichotomy affects the other variables. (I'm not asking for types descriptions, but "Je vs Ji; Pe vs Pi" explanations, etc) I'm pretty much a newbie on the MBTI theory. I'd appreciate good recommendations (although perhaps this is not the right place to ask for it...).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #20
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So, I am curious if other perceivers identified with the above descriptions. It seems like some perceivers end up adopting more Je-typical styles as adults (@FineLine being an extreme example among INFPs, @PeaceBaby, too, to a lesser degree) and others mostly don't, working to optimize the process that comes more naturally.
    YES!!! Yes! (Yes!)

    Absolutely, 100% spot on. When writing something - anything, actually writing the thing itself is basically a mechanical task and requires very little time. It's mostly like this:

    - get general idea of topic
    - narrow it down to a clearly identifiable question / phrase / topic / thesis
    - gather ideas, associate
    - read, read, read
    - let it stew for a while <== and this is exactly the point where real, productive work begins! While I'm doing all other sorts of things, I mull them over subconsciously, over and over again. It's like putting stuff (pieces of information) into a warehouse and then leave it while little people swarm around with forklifts, shout things, put stuff in shelves etc. etc. At the beginning, everything is a real mess, but after a certain while, things tend to get organized and structures begin to emerge. Then it is:
    - play video games, spend quality time, watch tv, surf the web
    - ...
    - nothing
    - nothing
    - nothing
    - the AHA! moment. Sometimes, or often, it's while I'm doing something completely else -
    - I suddenly get the idea of how to structure my paper, what comes when, and how to connect it
    - I know how to write it, what to include, what to leave out, all the content stuff
    - I know how to phrase things
    - I write the paper, which is good since it's already 2:00 a.m. and the paper is due today.

    This is how it usually goes.

    Now, I desperately wish sometimes that I could start it sooner, have a disciplined schedule where I write, say, 30 minutes each day for a paper that will be due in 2 weeks, but honestly it's just not how I do stuff and it doesn't come naturally to me. I'm very P, and periods of frenzied activity (which can be exhausting, extremely stressfull but also immensly gratifying) alternate with periods of basically no activity at all except taking a shower and doing grocery shopping.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

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