Ns are smarter than Ss?!

[cascadeco]

Okay those are interesting points and it is good to emphasise the fact that it is just a preference. But my issue is that I think living in observation land takes less brain capacity than living in abstract land. You practically said it yourself using the N as a salesperson example.
To live in N land you have to first live in S land - noticing the things physically around you, then taking them further, thinking about symbolism, collecting physical details about people to get an overall impression. There's more of an intuition about it because your brain is naturally picking up a million physical details all at once to create a certain vibe about someone. That's why I see it as an extension of S. Of course it is a preference, but couldnt we say that Ns are stretching their brains further than Ss every day by thinking of these things that require more brain capacity? And that stretching your brain like this is likely going to result in smarter people?

I actually disagree a lot with you regarding how you're describing N land and the N person supposedly picking up millions of details and then extrapolating from them. You are actually describing how it works for a lot of S's. S's are actually the ones who in theory are picking up lots of details and deciding things based on that. That's why those who prefer S can in fact be great salespeople or can be great with people in general, or with things right in front of them -- because they are in fact reading what is *actually happening right there*. I know N's who might notice one or two things, but miss everything else (or perhaps more accurately, might notice a few things and feel they are the critical elements, thus go down the rabbit hole with just those elements) -- and yet they might base their impressions on *just those one or two things* --- and take those two things and extropolate a world from them. Well, if they happened to notice the 'right' two things (and they might have), their intuitive reading could of course be dead on -- but they can latch onto a few things and they might have actually missed some other super key things -- and then their intuition is ridiculously off (and yet they will sink in the ship with their vision).

Re brain capacity, we'll agree to disagree.

Also I would say that the majority of Ns who find S things boring feel so because there is not enough going on intellectually. There is no deeper complex sophisticated meaning. It's just right there in front of you.

Well luckily, I find 100% intellectual utterly boring, so at least there's some balance here

 

[INTJMom]

People like to find any excuse to "prove" that they are better than someone else.

Even if MBTI itself was created with good intentions, it is not a system that people can use for good. All I've seen with it is people using it to feel superior to others and to put other people down.

It's almost like an invented class system.

Look, I know Mole likes to call it a cult, but he isn't necessarily far off in his thoughts that MBTI is bad. It's not that the system is necessarily bad, but it's that people are incapable of using it properly.

I think some people know how to use it properly.
I don't use it to feel superior to others or to put other people down.
I use it to learn to appreciate how other people see things from a different point of view than I do and how that point of view can be valuable when problem-solving, among other things.
I believe the system CAN be used for good.
I have been using it for good in my life since 1990.
I used it to understand my children better and to be able to help them as they were growing up.
I used it to improve communication with my husband.
I use it to get along better with others.

I agree that if a person only reads the profiles available online, they can get a bad idea from some of the very mean and biased profiles.
I have found the books are much more balanced and diplomatic in their descriptions of the 16 types.

 

[Forever]

Why can’t we be in a community where people update themselves with current information

 

[Dreamer]

I actually disagree a lot with you regarding how you're describing N land and the N person supposedly picking up millions of details and then extrapolating from them. You are actually describing how it works for a lot of S's. S's are actually the ones who in theory are picking up lots of details and deciding things based on that. That's why those who prefer S can in fact be great salespeople or can be great with people in general, or with things right in front of them -- because they are in fact reading what is *actually happening right there*. I know N's who might notice one or two things, but miss everything else (or perhaps more accurately, might notice a few things and feel they are the critical elements, thus go down the rabbit hole with just those elements) -- and yet they might base their impressions on *just those one or two things* --- and take those two things and extropolate a world from them. Well, if they happened to notice the 'right' two things (and they might have), their intuitive reading could of course be dead on -- but they can latch onto a few things and they might have actually missed some other super key things -- and then their intuition is ridiculously off (and yet they will sink in the ship with their vision).

I can vouge for the above. Jokingly, I kind of feel like my intuition is there because I DON'T see what's actually around me. My brain is desperately trying to make sense of the world from a shoelace, an empty picture frame, and a stray cat that has just walked by, just to keep me alive haha. And like you've shared, my intuitions about people can be spot on to the point of perceived clairvoyance or so wrong it's as though I just made up an entire life span history and deeper motivations for that person. Though, this is mostly an Ni thing as I hardly ever get THAT deep into my intuitions.

I've found my intuitions have gotten better and more accurate over the years as I've developed my Fi and Si and thus, understanding of people on a larger scale, but there will always be those abnormalities. I feel this also goes to show that intuition or sensing for that matter, doesn't come preloaded with all this mysticism attached, but develops with maturity and experience. Just because someone is an intuitive, doesn't mean they have been granted the keys to the universe, or that sensors have been given the talents and abilities to become professional athletes, hell nah! Life's a journey everyone, enjoy the ride

 

[Dreamer]

People like to find any excuse to "prove" that they are better than someone else.

Even if MBTI itself was created with good intentions, it is not a system that people can use for good. All I've seen with it is people using it to feel superior to others and to put other people down.

It's almost like an invented class system.

Look, I know Mole likes to call it a cult, but he isn't necessarily far off in his thoughts that MBTI is bad. It's not that the system is necessarily bad, but it's that people are incapable of using it properly.

I agree it isnt the system that's flawed but the people using it to extend their insecurities, seated within this categorical system applied to people, are. I can't actually bring myself to label these people as "flawed" but they really are doing a disservice to themselves. Rather than working through those insecurities and absolving themselves of the anguish they only feed into them by throwing more fuel to the fire.

Thankfully though, there are also many people on this site and elsewhere that DO see beyond the inherent limitations of the MBTI and do not allow it to dictate how they perceive other personality types, but really, the individuals, removed from labels. I just try to focus my attention on these sorts of people and not the former group

 

[EcK]

yes on average.

A Synthesis of Research on Psychological Types of Gifted Adolescents - SENG
about 75% of the gifted population is "N" - "Intuitives" constitute only about 1/4th - 1/3rd of the general population.

However that of course doesn't mean an "N" is by default 'more intelligent. As giftedness - depending on their criteria - probably only constitutes about 3% of the population - it's irrelevant to the other 97%.
I didn't check how they recruted participants though, so might be some methodological errors here, however i saw similar numbers often enough to suspect the results are roughly right.

Other papers' I've had a look at through the years seem to indicate that this over representation of Ns on the higher end of the IQ scale (and therefore probable overrepresentation of S' on the lower end of the IQ scale ) is still valid beyond gifted individuals.

 

[/DG/]

[MENTION=1125]INTJMom[/MENTION] - I did not mean to assert that literally everyone is incapable of using it properly... It's just that a frustratingly large amount of people use it improperly. There are many on here that try to use it as a tool or a game, but there are also many that try to use it as an excuse to put down entire groups of people. From my recollections, I have only seen you in the positive camp.

I just try to focus my attention on these sorts of people and not the former group

Honestly, I am rather bad at this in any given scenario. I had a bad week last week at work due to different coworkers giving me a hard time. There wasn't anything I was doing wrong (and actually I got bitched at for trying to be helpful one day). I was explaining my frustrations to one of my coworkers and he basically said that you can't take things like that personally. People will be assholes to other people, intentionally or not. And sometimes I can ignore those people, but sometimes not. It just gets tiring to put on a smile and ignore these things all the time.

Any tips? Sorry if this is too divergent from the thread topic.

 

[Population: 1]

I can vouge for the above. Jokingly, I kind of feel like my intuition is there because I DON'T see what's actually around me. My brain is desperately trying to make sense of the world from a shoelace, an empty picture frame, and a stray cat that has just walked by, just to keep me alive haha. And like you've shared, my intuitions about people can be spot on to the point of perceived clairvoyance or so wrong it's as though I just made up an entire life span history and deeper motivations for that person. Though, this is mostly an Ni thing as I hardly ever get THAT deep into my intuitions.

I've found my intuitions have gotten better and more accurate over the years as I've developed my Fi and Si and thus, understanding of people on a larger scale, but there will always be those abnormalities. I feel this also goes to show that intuition or sensing for that matter, doesn't come preloaded with all this mysticism attached, but develops with maturity and experience. Just because someone is an intuitive, doesn't mean they have been granted the keys to the universe, or that sensors have been given the talents and abilities to become professional athletes, hell nah! Life's a journey everyone, enjoy the ride

Yeah I think that the ‘take the first couple of impressions and run with it’ thing definitely happens to N’s. Especially when we’re young and don’t have a lot of wisdom and previous experience to draw from. Or if we’re too invested in something and emotional turmoil clouds our judgement. We might be willingly blind to intuition that points to things we don’t want to see.

 

[1487610420]

 

[INTJMom]

[MENTION=1125]INTJMom[/MENTION] - I did not mean to assert that literally everyone is incapable of using it properly... It's just that a frustratingly large amount of people use it improperly. There are many on here that try to use it as a tool or a game, but there are also many that try to use it as an excuse to put down entire groups of people. From my recollections, I have only seen you in the positive camp...

Ah.
Thank you.

 

[Yuurei]

This is not type-related. You answered your own question re: what it’s actually about: micromanaging, inability to hold oneself accountable.

I think it has a little to do with type: obviously not all S behave this way but everyone who behaves this way -in my experience-is an S.

I think so because of the particular things which make them angry.
Often times it's when something goes wrong and they can no longer go about their daily lives in their routine way. Then I come along and improvise so that things can still be done-just not in the established and acceptable way-and they lose their shit. I didn't "solve" anything" I broke it. "This isn't normal therefore you /are doing it wrong and it will end in disaster." Is their thought process.. It seems like something associated with an S.

This is not an attitude that I find with an any other "N's" adapting is great and thinking on your feet is a skill.

 

[Bush]

Alright, I'll take a stab at it.

Imagine that you're a five-year-old. You've got a Highlights activity book in front of you. The page you're looking at is a "connect the dots" sort of deal. If you look at all of the points -- all of the little details -- then the picture is pretty much just there ("when you connect these 100 points you've got a beach ball."). If you gloss over a lot of them, you might either guess wrong ("yep, I see two points that definitely make an alligator") or waste effort speculating on hypotheticals ("it could be an alligator, or it could be a beach ball, or it could be a sandwich, or it could be dignity, or...").

Or, if you have a world atlas right in front of you, then you don't have to guess or speculate about where the Solomon sea is. Or, if your brother tells you that he's thinking of a number between 1 and 10, you might have to guess. You might speculate a bit. But if he outright tells you that he's thinking of 7, then guessing or speculating about what he's thinking is a pretty dumb thing to do.

The N approach is more comfortable working with information that isn't there, but in the process it can also gloss over what is actually there. (And that, my friends, is also how Sensotard moments happen.)


On the other hand... what if there really are very few points to work with? What if you can't see all of the points? What if some aren't available -- what if there's information you don't know? What if you can get them but it'd take a lot of time and effort to get? What if you don't actually need all of them?

If you need certainty in order to move, you might be frozen solid. Or at least you might not move as quickly as you could. If you naturally work by filling in the blanks, then you might be more comfortable pressing on.

Also, there's a lot of stuff we don't know yet, and there's a lot of stuff we can't ever know. Sometimes, you have to take stabs in the dark.. or at least with very little light.


But again, there's also a lot of stuff right there in front of us. An old ISTJ boss of mine once said "There's no use speculating over a fact." He said it exactly once and it's burrowed into my brain as a core philosophy. So if you have an atlas, use the damn atlas.

No, the two approaches aren't equal. But at the same time, N doesn't master the S approach and then transcend above it.


(I hope the general point gets across, but I do see some nitpicking in my future. Also this got way too goddamn long)

 

[Yama]

Sorry if this is too divergent from the thread topic.

Well the thread topic sucks so don't apologize.

 

[Norexan]

Not smarter but quicker in processing of things.

For example if you give a paper with four pictures N type will see WORD behind it and S type wlll see WORDS behind it.

i𝐍tuitive vs 𝐒ensors
N - does not see details well -> consequnce most of them have really a bad life experince and feel like an outcast.
S - does not see wholeness well -> consquunce most of them have a low school grades...

 

[Yama]

S - does not see wholeness well -> consquunce most of them have a low school grades...

But here I thought society and the educational system was SJ biased?

 

[Norexan]

But here I thought society and the educational system was SJ biased?

Most of people are S type so ti is natural to expect that most of S type people are not very smart since the most people are not smart at all!

 

[Forever]

Are you kidding me nor lol, SJ’s usually get better school grades than me lmao. They do the daily work required and follow that habit. And usually even just completing assignments gets a better grade if you do them throughly everyday. Not everyone takes AP classes in hs so they can get A’s or B’s quite easily.

I think N’s usually bored with the school system tend to do poorer if they don’t have a specific goal in mind. Ni’s Fault is that it only does well when Ni see’s a purpose in that and then it excels and may even transcend common understanding. Think of Ni as a laser really. Ne types too as long as they aren’t overly distracted they may actually do okay but if are, they could drop out or just live with an hs diploma.

I think Se and Ne are more similar in this regard.

Where as Si user will usually head toward security. They do well in school because knowing they do well will likely land them a job that is needed in society and job security is then insured. Almost all I know with straight good grades tend to be Si users.

I might of known a few INj’s with flying colors but they like I said already exactly had a plan and motivation to go somewhere. An INJ with a plan is extremely attractive though.

But then there are some Si users who do good in school but like things like cooking and hair salon and more practical things other than accounting or literature. So they just live a nice independent lifestyle away from the world.

School bored me to tears and yeah I passed but with no goal and I almost hit academic probaation because I was so obsessed with being good with running I fatigued my body everyday (until I learned how to pace myself). I sound similar to an Se user who’s focus is on a practical matter.

I did really well in my first year of college because I was convinced that I should be a doctor. But now I am more aimless in my direction.

On a a whole scale, different preferences leads to different lifestyles:

Ne and Se users may do more creative and interactive activities than their introverted cousins like fashion and design or music/art or sports/trainer or public media

 

[cascadeco]

Not smarter but quicker in processing of things.

For example if you give a paper with four pictures N type will see WORD behind it and S type wlll see WORDS behind it.

i𝐍tuitive vs 𝐒ensors
N - does not see details well -> consequnce most of them have really a bad life experince and feel like an outcast.
S - does not see wholeness well -> consquunce most of them have a low school grades...

haha on S's having low school grades and N's by default being outcasts (there's many an ENFJ who were never outcasts (any more than any other person going through life), just as one example).

You know this is the sort of stuff that drives me batty on mbti forums -- it's just a giant bubble that doesn't at all reflect most individuals who don't partake in internet forums (which is 99.999999% of the planet) - it just doesn't reflect reality.

While I can appreciate for illustrative purposes the distinction in your image, and the attempt to contrast between the extreme of one vs the other, where S's 'will see four separate shapes' and N's will see a pattern, anyone with a) half a brain; and b) who has had any schooling will have learned at a young age to see both individual shapes and also identify patterns. It's not as if an S won't see a pattern and an N won't be able to pick out individual shapes. It's really quite silly, and most people probably don't identify with one OR the other. Outside of mbti, in terms of pure brain research, pretty much every individual on the planet uses patterns to survive in life, and people with the inability to do so are severely limited / special needs (from the book 'Brain Rules').

I'll be honest, at this point I'd be hard-pressed to say what I 'naturally' would do. Due to schooling. Due to life. Maybe when I was 7 you could have shown me that image and I would have leaned towards one OR the other, but at this point in life, it's completely irrelevant, and I can happily say I can identify both individual elements and the overall pattern, and my answer likely would be 'Well what answer are you wanting? That there are four distinct shapes or that they are all shapes and thus constitute a single concept?' . Who knows what my 'preference' is, iow, with this example.

Because as a pre-teen I did well in pattern/logic tests / standardized iq type tests, much of which was pattern-based/abstract vs 'not seeing the whole', does that mean I am N by default? I personally don't think so, as I think things can be learned. Using these kinds of methods to determine things seems silly to me.

 

[Norexan]

Most of people are S type so ti is natural to expect that most of S type people are not very smart since the most people are not smart at all!

You people must learn your brain how to work with statistics and probality. I don't generalize anyone. I just speak how it is.

One more things...

Ne user maybe is easily bored but he/she will learn something in the last moment and still have good grades. Se won't.

Are you kidding me nor lol, SJ’s usually get better school grades than me lmao. They do the daily work required and follow that habit. And usually even just completing assignments gets a better grade if you do them throughly everyday. Not everyone takes AP classes in hs so they can get A’s or B’s quite easily.

I think N’s usually bored with the school system tend to do poorer if they don’t have a specific goal in mind. Ni’s Fault is that it only does well when Ni see’s a purpose in that and then it excels and may even transcend common understanding. Think of Ni as a laser really. Ne types too as long as they aren’t overly distracted they may actually do okay but if are, they could drop out or just live with an hs diploma.

Yeah. This is why I called Si better stategist then Ni, they can plan, they can organize things, they are hard-worker. they learn, plan and do stuff.
And Ni maybe is supreme but without Se Ni can't move. Infact Ni cannot do anything wihout Se. So is not thar we are bored but outer cannot give us satisfactions since there is no imagination to be satisfied. So we ocupate ourself with fantasy movies, books, tv shows and stuff.

 

[Yama]

You people must learn your brain how to work with statistics and probality. I don't generalize anyone. I just speak how it is.

Once these two words start getting thrown around, I'm out