Fe and Te?

[Kiddo]

How strange. I was discussing this very topic via PM with somebody yesterday. It was mostly focused on the difference between Fi and Fe.

I said I found Fi to be scary because it's just too damn conclusive for me. Too black and white. I feel the world is just too complex to see things in terms of just right and wrong. Fi values just seem so set in stone and impregnable.

My friend said that Fe is scary because it is flexible. Fe seems too bent on changing to please the mood of the moment.

I would say at its best that Fe is adaptable values and its purpose is to seek the greatest harmony for the greatest number of people. In fact, I feel great discourse with those whose values lie outside of the general population's acceptable values and who refuse to compromise even a little for the harmony of everyone.

Whereas Fi at its best is a passionate vision of what is the best values for everyone (or just for that individual). It stands by that vision, even at the sacrifice of harmony.

Te and Ti is much simpler.

Te is organizing, building, ect. Ti is defining, clarifying, ect. I like to think of it as Te is glue and Ti is a razor.

 

[Gabe]

it only cares about the feelings of the present moment. Ni and Si contain the actual code of values you're referring to.



again, the code of values is actually stored in Ni or Si. Fe just cares about the users feelings associated with the outside world in the moment.



sorry to sound like a broken record, but that assumption lies in the introverted perception functions.

You sound like you are innacurately limiting the repetoire of a function. Fi values see things as innately good or bad and build off of that to make a decision. You can play a semantic trick and say that our viewpoints are based on experience and perception, but that's irrelivent. Fe values are a much longer list of correct behaviors, and has moral codes that extend beyond a specific moment. The 'feeling of the moment' behavoir that people are afraid of is probably a banal shadow/possibly demonic behavior, and probably isn't even Feeling most of the time.

 

[redacted]

i'm just attempting to make sense of these functions, and this the only simple and completely logically valid system i've come up with.

it's not a semantic trick. obviously an xxFP has an experience that weighs past decisions made by Fi more heavily than an xxTPs experience.

and an xxFJ will of course have a longer list of "correct" behaviors because their experience is focused more on the feelings of the external world.

why do you even disagree? i'm totally open to constructive criticism.

i don't even really care if i'm changing some definitions around a bit. the system i knew before didn't make sense to me and this one does. what's wrong with this system?

 

[nightning]

I don't really see how perceiving functions (internal or external) can hold values. They influence what is noticed/retained and thus the inputs. But they don't inherently hold values... that's the duty of the judging functions.

The system I see is the following:

Perceiving functions -> memory -> interpretation -> Judging functions -> output decision.

Judging functions act on the fly. At any given situation, there's always the process of "what do I think/feel about this" prior to the decision. Consistency across time (the so call values) is simply application of judging functions consistently across different situations when given similar inputs.

 

[SillySapienne]

all judging functions are deductive.

Te assumes that the outer world is most important
Fe assumes that feelings about the outer world are most important
Ti assumes, well, nothing
Fi assumes feelings are most important

they all factor in the above premises and the information they get from perceiving functions and make deductions.

anyone have thoughts on that?

Is the outer world everything but yourself? Would Ti and Fi be selfish, or self-absorbed functions then?

According to your definitions, wouldn't someone afflicted with Ti be delusional, and someone afflicted with Fi be hysterical?

 

[Gabe]

i'm just attempting to make sense of these functions, and this the only simple and completely logically valid system i've come up with.

it's not a semantic trick. obviously an xxFP has an experience that weighs past decisions made by Fi more heavily than an xxTPs experience.

and an xxFJ will of course have a longer list of "correct" behaviors because their experience is focused more on the feelings of the external world.

why do you even disagree? i'm totally open to constructive criticism.

i don't even really care if i'm changing some definitions around a bit. the system i knew before didn't make sense to me and this one does. what's wrong with this system?

Moral codes don't exist as perceptions. If you have no judgement, you might know the world is going to end but won't give a damn.

So the rational functions do the job of constructing the moral code. The feeling functions don't just passively react and 'have feelings'. (burning your hand is a sensation)

That's how the distinction works.

 

[Blackmail!]

I have been reading some of the things said on this forum, and that has raised some doubts and question in my mind.
I am getting confused about Fe.
People were saying, its mostly 'fake', a lie. Its just to accommodate the other person/group by playing chameleon. This is making me paranoid! Its making me feel Fe is insincere! How do I believe a person who is Fe? Is it what they're actually feeling, or is it just some big show?
Maybe I dont know enough about this theory, therefore arriving at wrong judgment. Feel free to correct me please.
Also, how does the Te work?
Thank you

Well, a lot have already been said about Fe.

But there's a point I'd like to make clear. According to our type, we may not have the same perception of the same function, because we do not use it the same way, in the same order, and for the same purpose.

As an ENTP, the way we use our tertiary Fe is completely different from a Dom Fe like what you would expect in an ExFJ. It's the same function, we may both have a good amount of it, but it's not the same goal.

The "fake" Fe you describe probably rather refers to a tertiary Fe. And indeed, my own Fe can look this way (unfortunately).
It's because despite its magnitude, my Fe is subordinated to my Ti, and thus, I mostly use it to correct my harsh, dry Ti temper. INTPs don't have Fe to mellow their Ti, so you can easily see the huge gap, even in MBTI-c, between us (ENTPs) and them.
We are social creatures, they [usually] aren't, even if we share the same basic thoughts.

Do you understand what I mean?

Anyway, an ExFJ will never use his/her Fe the same way I would, so he/she may describe a completely different point of view, and be genuinely perplexed when you say his/her dominant function is "fake" or "insincere".
A lot of IxFJs already showed us how Fe looks as an auxiliary function, but I think it would be very interesting to listen what an ExFJ would have to say about it, if we want to see the full panorama of various Fe's.

---

At last.

Now I will speak for me only (I'll let the other ENTPs comment this if they want). I know I have a very high Fe, even for an ENTP. I've said it can look "fake" or "insincere" (I'd rather say it's simply "diplomatic"), but it's not only this.
My high tertiary Fe allowed me to develop a genuine interest into others, how they live, how they think, and I appreciate diversity. It allows me to listen to new ideas everywhere, to feed my dominant Ne. I may be caustic and sarcastic sometimes, but I like people as a whole, wherever they come from.
I smile in crowds whenever I have the opportunity, and I know it's my Fe working. And believe me, the pleasure I feel among my fellow men is not faked.

So you see, even as a tertiary function, having some Fe is never a negative asset.

 

[Haphazard]

Is the outer world everything but yourself? Would Ti and Fi be selfish, or self-absorbed functions then?

According to your definitions, wouldn't someone afflicted with Ti be delusional, and someone afflicted with Fi be hysterical?

These expressions you're talking about usually come with Ti or Fi being in the inferior (and sometimes tertiary) functions. Fi may be self-absorbed but in a dominant/auxillary position it respects that others are self-absorbed, too, and work on that assumption. Fe doesn't do that and rather looks at known expectations for behavior.

Fi will try to seek deeply into somebody for understanding and be quite merciful with what it finds. Fe, however, will find something 'wrong' and try to fix it so that the person is happier, whether the person wants it or not.

 

[Gabe]

Oh, and I mentioned 'semantics', because it seems that it is very easy to get lead astray on forums.

 

[SillySapienne]

Te is organizing, building, ect. Ti is defining, clarifying, ect. I like to think of it as Te is glue and Ti is a razor.

So Te is most concerned with synthesizing information while Ti is most concerned with analyzing information?

If that's the case, I know that I analyze information with the hope and intent of synthesizing cohesive systems of "truth". I enjoy creating categories, not categorizing, if that makes sense.

 

[redacted]

Is the outer world everything but yourself? Would Ti and Fi be selfish, or self-absorbed functions then?

According to your definitions, wouldn't someone afflicted with Ti be delusional, and someone afflicted with Fi be hysterical?

well i don't think they necessarily don't care about the outer world. they just don't place any extra value on it in making decisions.

and it's not like an xxTP ONLY has Ti. they have all the other judging functions, too, to some degree.

Moral codes don't exist as perceptions. If you have no judgement, you might know the world is going to end but won't give a damn.

So the rational functions do the job of constructing the moral code. The feeling functions don't just passively react and 'have feelings'. (burning your hand is a sensation)

That's how the distinction works.

but experience in general is in the realm of Pi. a set of long-term values is a part of overall experience (a part than Fi factors in quite often).

from the Pi's perspective, the values aren't even decipherable. it's the F function's job to decipher them and analyze them against other data from P functions.

all judging functions function the same exact way. pure deduction. the information they deduce from is what's different.

J functions don't start with any information by themselves. they get information from P functions and output the result of their analysis.

to me, it doesn't make sense any other way.

 

[redacted]

So Te is most concerned with synthesizing information while Ti is most concerned with analyzing information?

If that's the case, I know that I analyze information with the hope and intent of synthesizing cohesive systems of "truth". I enjoy creating categories, not categorizing, if that makes sense.

i don't think that's the correct distinction to make between Te and Ti. they're pretty much the same, with the difference being that Te is biased toward the outer world.

 

[htb]

My high tertiary Fe allowed me to develop a genuine interest into others, how they live, how they think, and I appreciate diversity. It allows me to listen to new ideas everywhere, to feed my dominant Ne.

Impeccable description. However, the phrase "Tell me about yourself/the subject at hand," stated by a wide-eyed ENTP, can often be translated as "Amuse me."

An ENTP recently implored me to tell him about MBTI and his type. I replied, with a smirk, "Make a list of questions." No list, and the conversation hasn't been revisited since!

 

[SillySapienne]

i don't think that's the correct distinction to make between Te and Ti. they're pretty much the same, with the difference being that Te is biased toward the outer world.

Please define outer world.

How is there a distinction between the world you belong to and the world that exists outside yourself?

 

[Blackmail!]

Impeccable description. However, the phrase "Tell me about yourself/the subject at hand," stated by a wide-eyed ENTP, can often be translated as "Amuse me."

Touche!

Htb, your deep cleverness will never cease to amaze me.

 

[SillySapienne]

These expressions you're talking about usually come with Ti or Fi being in the inferior (and sometimes tertiary) functions. Fi may be self-absorbed but in a dominant/auxillary position it respects that others are self-absorbed, too, and work on that assumption. Fe doesn't do that and rather looks at known expectations for behavior.

Fi will try to seek deeply into somebody for understanding and be quite merciful with what it finds. Fe, however, will find something 'wrong' and try to fix it so that the person is happier, whether the person wants it or not.

This (the distinctions between Fi and Fe) makes plenty of sense to me for some reason, but I don't yet fully understand the distinctions between, or definitions of Ti vs. Te.

If you can, please enlighten me.

 

[Blackmail!]

all judging functions function the same exact way. pure deduction. the information they deduce from is what's different.

How can you be so sure it's only "pure deduction", and not inductive (most likely), abductive or even transductive (analogy) reasoning?

 

[Haphazard]

This (the distinctions between Fi and Fe) makes plenty of sense to me for some reason, but I don't yet fully understand the distinctions between, or definitions of Ti vs. Te.

If you can, please enlighten me.

Ti searches for things like internal consistency in logic while Te looks for external consistency. Te will be satisfied with a model that obtains consistent results, while Ti might find something logically 'wrong' with the model based on what is known about things in the model and discredit it based on that.

 

[redacted]

Please define outer world.

How is there a distinction between the world you belong to and the world that exists outside yourself?

well i'm using inner-world to mean your thoughts and feelings.

i'm not saying you don't exist in your outer world.

How can you be so sure it's only "pure deduction", and not inductive (most likely), abductive or even transductive (analogy) reasoning?

inductive and transductive are in the realm of intuition. i dont know what abductive is, but i'd assume it's in the realm of intuition as well.

 

[Blackmail!]

I'd say Te compares datas according to know models (objective thinker), while Ti is obsessed with the intrinsic meaning of things and the little glitches no one suspects (subjective thinker). Both functions can be contradictory sometimes.

Ti always seeks context, definition, inner logic... [ALWAYS!]

while

Te speaks about order, organization, position, comparisons...