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Thread: Fe and Te?

  1. #81
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    I'm going to pick at bits and pieces to respond simply because there's too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by The WhimWham View Post
    You're right, and I should have put "deeper" in inverted commas. I don't think Te is more superficial than Ti, but I certainly think that's how it appears to I_TPs. It's really a pretty old cliche that extraversion seems "shallow" and "superficial" to introverts (and, by the same token, introversion looks myopic and limited to extraverts).
    You can say Te is superficial in that it only assess theories relevant to the topic at hand. I call it being efficient. Why deal with extra junk when it doesn't affect the overall outcome? You certainly don't see death by over-analysis with Te.

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i'd say they have to use Ni to some extent to generate some possible connections that Ti can analyze.

    it seems like any complex processing has to use 3-4 functions all sending information among eachother.
    For people to effectively process anything, both introverted and extroverted judging and perceiving functions are required. It has been commonly described as a zig zag pattern.

    Intake of external input (extroverted perceiving) -> interpretation and analysis of input (introverted judging) -> amassing of internal ideas (introverted perceiving) -> determining stance and action to issue (extroverted judging).

    The difference between types simply lies in which step you spend the most time on. For the Ni dominant, other functions (Se, Fi, Ti etc) act as spring boards to keep Ni going. Te and Fe only comes in when we need to actually make a decision.

  2. #82
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    why shouldn't it be?
    Why should it be?

    connections can mean a lot of things. you seem to be deliberately interpreting my words in a way that is contradictory instead of Ni/Fe-ing to find way to see my point of view.
    I already said, my Ni/Fe-ing tells me you are arbitrarily redefining the concepts.

    Assuming you are an INFJ, you may be so used to Ni, that you aren't even aware of it, but you are aware of your shadow Ne, because it requires a certain amount of awareness for an INFJ to utilize it, and as a result, you are attributing Ne characteristics to Ni.

    i'm not talking really about connections between two things in the environment. i'm talking about a connection from one concept to another concept.
    That would still be Ne.

    okay, sure. it can relate things to eachother, which i guess is technically interpreting. but the definition you quoted is just some guy's simplification of the function. i don't see why you're giving it so much weight.
    You are welcomed to provide definitions from other sources that support your assertions.

    full interpretation really takes a judging function.
    Actually it is more of a back and forth type thing. And an idea may never be fully interpreted.

    of course it is.

    you can either try to see what i'm saying or just blindly dismiss it because i'm somehow not credible.

    if you think about it, everything we read about type is personal observation.
    Indeed, this is all observation but the question you raised was how you were contradicting the definitions. I made that point to establish that your interpretation isn't part of any definitions I had seen.

    i'm gonna go find a quote in jung's original book, but honestly, all perceiving functions can take in external data. the introverted ones just see external data as one tiny speck of information in a lifelong series, the extroverted ones see the data as all that matters.
    Oh? Then what is the point of even naming them Ne and Ni?

    and honestly "foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data" doesn't even make any sense. implications of what? if it's implications of something external, it by definition takes in external data. if it's implications of something internal...well... so what?
    Implication is significance. It's a sense of what is and is not significant in a situation based on the perceptions of the Ni.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    all judging functions are deductive.

    Te assumes that the outer world is most important
    Fe assumes that feelings about the outer world are most important
    Ti assumes, well, nothing
    Fi assumes feelings are most important

    they all factor in the above premises and the information they get from perceiving functions and make deductions.

    anyone have thoughts on that?
    Fi assumes that personal feelings are most important.
    Fe assumes that the feelings of others are most important.

    Does that make sense? It's how I've always distinguished between the two. As more of a Fe person, I find that the thing I have in common with other Fe Dom or Aux types is that my own personal feelings take a backseat to other's personal feelings. When I do express my personal feelings, I tend not to do it so well which leads to "flip outs" and "moodiness" when they are expressed. I'll also take things super personally if they are against me when using Fi and I also feel really selfish if I'm not considering the needs of others when expressing my personal feelings which leads me to downplay my feelings (and needs) for the comfort of everyone involved. My ISFJ boyfriend has the same problem - and when he's forced to use Fi (usually because he's been putting his personal feelings aside for the protection of the feelings of others & is about to explode), he tends to make irrational snap decisions and then goes back on them when he calms down. I do the same thing as him when I am forced to use Fi - it's like a snap decision outburst that I totally regret like a week later.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Butterfly's Avatar
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    Wow, interesting and deep replies! Thanks. I need to chew on it.
    Here are some quotes that caught my eye:

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    No.

    Ti prefers to analyze/dissect information whereas Te prefers to apply/connect information.

    Ti exhibits depth in details, and Te exhibits depth in scope.
    I like this explanation. Makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alcea Rosea View Post
    Fe in my opinion is very warm and considerate function. Well balanced Fe is no fake in any way.

    I'd say Te is all about organizing and categorizing.
    Thanks. How does this come into effect when making decisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Te and Fe only comes in when we need to actually make a decision.
    OMG Nighting DONT SAY THAT!! Now whatever I have learnt about this MBTI theory is being shattered by that statement of yours!! :O
    No but seriously, If Fe and Te are used when ACTUALLY making a decision, then I really dont understand the functions of F and T in general.
    For eg: Im ENFP. I take decisions taking ppls feelings into account. Now I have a Te, so how does F and Te interplay in decision making? Shouldnt my decisions be based on F ???
    Same goes with for eg INTP. Their decisions are based on logic (T). They have Fe, so I dont see them making decisions based on other peoples feelings?!!
    Im confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by quietgirl View Post
    Fi assumes that personal feelings are most important.
    Fe assumes that the feelings of others are most important.
    Thanks, but this is again the opposite of what the types are all about. I as an ENFP have Fi, but I dont think only my feelings are important!
    Again for eg, someone who has Fe, they still make decisions based on logic and dont take into account other ppls feelings.
    Not sure, but it doesnt make sense to me what you said.

  5. #85
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
    OMG Nighting DONT SAY THAT!! Now whatever I have learnt about this MBTI theory is being shattered by that statement of yours!! :O
    No but seriously, If Fe and Te are used when ACTUALLY making a decision, then I really dont understand the functions of F and T in general.
    For eg: Im ENFP. I take decisions taking ppls feelings into account. Now I have a Te, so how does F and Te interplay in decision making? Shouldnt my decisions be based on F ???
    Same goes with for eg INTP. Their decisions are based on logic (T). They have Fe, so I dont see them making decisions based on other peoples feelings?!!
    Im confused.
    I didn't say Fe and Te are the only things involved in making decisions...
    For an ENFP... Fi would play a role... needing an internally consistency with decisions. Te will help in figuring out what you need to do though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
    Thanks, but this is again the opposite of what the types are all about. I as an ENFP have Fi, but I dont think only my feelings are important!
    Again for eg, someone who has Fe, they still make decisions based on logic and dont take into account other ppls feelings.
    Not sure, but it doesnt make sense to me what you said.
    How is it the opposite of what the types are all about?

    I never said Fi thinks personal feelings are ONLY important. I said MOST. As in when it comes down to it, when you are using Fi, you are placing more value on your own feelings over someone else's feelings. It's still a blanket statement, but I meant to give a generalization. It does not mean that Fi type people only consider their own feelings. It's just where you place more value when using a certain function.

    Well, by definition, a Feeling function is making decisions based on feeling and a thinking function is making decisions based on logic. Does that mean that Feelers don't use logic? No. But I was talking about specific functions without the use of other functions. Do I make all of my decisions using only my Fe? Nope. When I let other functions come into play, I do make well thought out decisions based on the accumulation of the functions I am using. However, if my decision is mainly driven by Fe, then yes, it will take into consideration the feelings of others.

  7. #87
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quietgirl View Post
    Fi assumes that personal feelings are most important.
    Fe assumes that the feelings of others are most important.
    i think of it more like:
    Fi assumes that personal feelings are most important
    Fe assumes that personal feelings about the outside world of feelings are most important.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I've been having an issue with dissonance's definition of Ni. He keeps describing Ni as a "giant web of connections" which seems much more Ne to me, especially when he emphasizes absorbing "external data into the web" when Ni is about insight, or the feeling of understanding coming from a deep perception of each situation.

    When it comes to discussing intuition, extroverted usually translates into a broad, indirect, and not very specific perception whereas introverted translates into a deep, astute, and generally specific perception. Not to mention that Ne is focused on taking patterns, interpreting them, and translating them into a new ways of looking at things, whereas Ni makes use of its deep perception to predict what the outcomes of various patterns will be.
    I essentially agree, and here's why: Introversion involves "boiling down" and refining, not keeping a multitude of items around (which is more Extraverted).

    Ne is internal in that, frankly, it's still a function of the psyche. However, it's all about intuitive leaps, springing from one idea to the next. Ni, on the other hand, strikes me as being projective, where it's a distilling towards pure archetypes.

    I do, howevever, agree that Ne:Ni as Se:Si (and Ne:Se as Ni:Si), just because the categories for functions wouldn't make sense otherwise.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i think TYPE is about tendencies. functions should be rigidly defined -- it would be a pretty flimsy system if both type and functions were amorphous.
    I like your objection because I want to agree with it, but my observation is that this idea doesn't really work in the real world. For starters, there are more than eight possible cognitive processes that any of us can engage in.

    Maybe a better phrasing of what I mean is, "Functions encapsulate certain fundamental worldviews that encourage particular cognitive processes."

    well Ne and Ni are both about making connections. they therefore play a similar role.
    The issue I'm having (as I said to Kiddo) is that Ni should really be opposed to retaining a multitude of connections. It's the intensity/extensity dichotomy that introverted and extraverted functions can be divided along.
    Last edited by The WhimWham; 05-07-2008 at 05:56 PM. Reason: Fixed a word

  10. #90
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The WhimWham View Post
    I like your objection because I want to agree with it, but my observation is that this idea doesn't really work in the real world. For starters, there are more than eight possible cognitive processes that any of us can engage in.
    i think my system works as long as you pass information between functions in a complex enough way. i think of the cognitive functions like computer program functions. you can write a new process that makes function calls within function calls, etc. i guess there's probably a bigger program that calls the 8 functions, like an int main() in C++. (it says you're a comp sci student in your profile, so you get what i'm saying)

    i HAVE to make this objection because i can't gloss over little inconsistencies in the system. if there's any inconsistency, it just means my understanding is wrong. this is the only way i can think of to make it all click into place. otherwise i'll just be bothered non-stop. maybe i'm redefining things a little, but i think all the descriptions of the functions actually still fit (at least in my mind, i just haven't been explaining correctly i guess).

    Maybe a better phrasing of what I mean is, "Functions encapsulate certain fundamental worldviews that encourage particular cognitive processes."

    The issue I'm having (as I said to Kiddo) is that Ni should really be opposed to retaining a multitude of connections. It's the intensity/extensity dichotomy that introverted and extraverted functions can be divided along.
    what do you think Ni does? why would it be opposed to retaining a multitude of connections?

    if it's about archetypes, wouldn't the archetypes have to be stored away so that new data can be seen in terms of those archetypes?

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