User Tag List

First 678910 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 94

Thread: Fe and Te?

  1. #71
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The WhimWham View Post
    I just want to address this point by asking, Where do ISTPs fit into this? They're also excellent at figuring systems out.

    (P.S. I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse, so I hope I haven't given that impression.)
    i'd say they have to use Ni to some extent to generate some possible connections that Ti can analyze.

    it seems like any complex processing has to use 3-4 functions all sending information among eachother.

  2. #72

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i'd say they have to use Ni to some extent to generate some possible connections that Ti can analyze.

    it seems like any complex processing has to use 3-4 functions all sending information among eachother.
    Perhaps, but again, this is the problem with using a "cognitive processes" approach to type, IMHO. At best, I think the functions are more about tendencies towards certain processes, assumptions, attitudes, etc. than processes themselves (or parts thereof).

    But putting that aside for a moment, I just can't see how Ni could substitute for Ne here, particularly given that it's an ISTP's tertiary function. Ni and Ne are very different functions and can't play the same role in similar processes.

  3. #73
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    OMNi
    Posts
    2,790

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The WhimWham View Post
    But putting that aside for a moment, I just can't see how Ni could substitute for Ne here, particularly given that it's an ISTP's tertiary function. Ni and Ne are very different functions and can't play the same role in similar processes.
    I've been having an issue with dissonance's definition of Ni. He keeps describing Ni as a "giant web of connections" which seems much more Ne to me, especially when he emphasizes absorbing "external data into the web" when Ni is about insight, or the feeling of understanding coming from a deep perception of each situation.

    Ne - extraverted iNtuiting
    Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change "what is" for "what could possibly be"; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts.

    Ni - introverted iNtuiting
    Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data; realizing "what will be"; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; envisioning transformations; getting an image of profound meaning or far-reaching symbols.
    When it comes to discussing intuition, extroverted usually translates into a broad, indirect, and not very specific perception whereas introverted translates into a deep, astute, and generally specific perception. Not to mention that Ne is focused on taking patterns, interpreting them, and translating them into a new ways of looking at things, whereas Ni makes use of its deep perception to predict what the outcomes of various patterns will be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #74
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The WhimWham View Post
    Perhaps, but again, this is the problem with using a "cognitive processes" approach to type, IMHO. At best, I think the functions are more about tendencies towards certain processes, assumptions, attitudes, etc. than processes themselves (or parts thereof).
    i think TYPE is about tendencies. functions should be rigidly defined -- it would be a pretty flimsy system if both type and functions were amorphous.

    But putting that aside for a moment, I just can't see how Ni could substitute for Ne here, particularly given that it's an ISTP's tertiary function. Ni and Ne are very different functions and can't play the same role in similar processes.
    well Ne and Ni are both about making connections. they therefore play a similar role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I've been having an issue with dissonance's definition of Ni. He keeps describing Ni as a "giant web of connections" which seems much more Ne to me, especially when he emphasizes absorbing "external data into the web" when Ni is about insight, or the feeling of understanding coming from a deep perception of each situation.

    When it comes to discussing intuition, extroverted usually translates into a broad, indirect, and not very specific perception whereas introverted translates into a deep, astute, and generally specific perception. Not to mention that Ne is focused on taking patterns, interpreting them, and translating them into a new ways of looking at things, whereas Ni makes use of its deep perception to predict what the outcomes of various patterns will be.
    Ni is all about finding new data's position in the "web" i was talking about. the "insight", or "feeling of understanding" is when you've found the position. Ni can predict the future by using the web as a template for how the strings of the past all connect together. if you get how one moment in the past caused the next, you can use the same logic to figure out how the present will cause the future.

    but i think you're ascribing too much to Ne. Ne doesn't realy interpret, i think that's more a task for judging functions. Ne just makes connections without paying attention to how things have fit together in the past. in that sense, Ne is more creative than Ni, because it's not bounded by experience.

    and Ne is obviously much more reactive to new data because it doesn't have nearly as much work to do. when Ni sees new data, it has to sift through every past concept to place the data, whereas Ne just makes something up.

    but of course Ni can take in data, it must've at some point...

  5. #75
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    OMNi
    Posts
    2,790

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Ni is all about finding new data's position in the "web" i was talking about. the "insight", or "feeling of understanding" is when you've found the position. Ni can predict the future by using the web as a template for how the strings of the past all connect together. if you get how one moment in the past caused the next, you can use the same logic to figure out how the present will cause the future.

    but i think you're ascribing too much to Ne. Ne doesn't realy interpret, i think that's more a task for judging functions. Ne just makes connections without paying attention to how things have fit together in the past. in that sense, Ne is more creative than Ni, because it's not bounded by experience.

    and Ne is obviously much more reactive to new data because it doesn't have nearly as much work to do. when Ni sees new data, it has to sift through every past concept to place the data, whereas Ne just makes something up.

    but of course Ni can take in data, it must've at some point...
    I'm sorry, but I think you are arbitrarily redefining Ni and Ne, possibly to make them fit you. I have not seen a single definition of Ni and Ne that supports your assertions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  6. #76
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I'm sorry, but I think you are arbitrarily redefining Ni and Ne, possibly to make them fit you. I have not seen a single definition of Ni and Ne that supports your assertions.
    my biggest problem with descriptions of the functions on many websites is that
    Se:Si isn't like Ne:Ni

    and i don't see how what i'm saying even contradicts any definitions. it still supports insight, predicting the future, seeing things in terms of archetypes, conceptualizing new ways of seeing things, etc.

  7. #77
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    9,849

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    and i don't see how what i'm saying even contradicts any definitions. it still supports insight, predicting the future, seeing things in terms of archetypes, conceptualizing new ways of seeing things, etc.
    Uh, Ne doesn't facilitate/induce/exhibit these characteristics?
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #78
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    OMNi
    Posts
    2,790

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    my biggest problem with descriptions of the functions on many websites is that
    Se:Si isn't like Ne:Ni
    Well that is a good thing because Se:Si isn't like Ne:Ni.

    and i don't see how what i'm saying even contradicts any definitions. it still supports insight, predicting the future, seeing things in terms of archetypes, conceptualizing new ways of seeing things, etc.
    I'll try to point out some contradictions.

    Ni is all about finding new data's position in the "web" i was talking about. the "insight", or "feeling of understanding" is when you've found the position. Ni can predict the future by using the web as a template for how the strings of the past all connect together. if you get how one moment in the past caused the next, you can use the same logic to figure out how the present will cause the future.
    First you are imposing the idea of "web." If you look at the definitions I posted earlier, the one that mentions "thread" and "connections" isn't Ni, but Ne.

    but i think you're ascribing too much to Ne. Ne doesn't realy interpret, i think that's more a task for judging functions. Ne just makes connections without paying attention to how things have fit together in the past. in that sense, Ne is more creative than Ni, because it's not bounded by experience.
    If you look at the defintion I posted earlier it says, "Interpreting situations and relationships."

    and Ne is obviously much more reactive to new data because it doesn't have nearly as much work to do. when Ni sees new data, it has to sift through every past concept to place the data, whereas Ne just makes something up.
    I've never even heard of this concept, so I imagine it is your own personal observation.

    but of course Ni can take in data, it must've at some point...
    The definition I posted earlier said, "Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data". Every function has to take in data to work, but the type of data that Ni takes in is in no way "external." Other functions take in external data, whereas Ni utilizes "internal" data that has been filtered and derived by other functions. Hence why INTJs and INFJs can sometimes have proof put right in their face and still continue to deny it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #79
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Uh, Ne doesn't facilitate/induce/exhibit these characteristics?
    yeah, Ne can do that stuff too. although the archetype stuff is more Ni.

    again, Ni has to spend a lot of energy fitting data into a hierarchy of concepts, so it's less reactive to the environment.

    Ne is much quicker and more all over the place.

  10. #80
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Well that is a good thing because Se:Si isn't like Ne:Ni.
    why shouldn't it be?

    First you are imposing the idea of "web." If you look at the definitions I posted earlier, the one that mentions "thread" and "connections" isn't Ni, but Ne.
    connections can mean a lot of things. you seem to be deliberately interpreting my words in a way that is contradictory instead of Ni/Fe-ing to find way to see my point of view.

    i'm not talking really about connections between two things in the environment. i'm talking about a connection from one concept to another concept.

    If you look at the defintion I posted earlier it says, "Interpreting situations and relationships."
    okay, sure. it can relate things to eachother, which i guess is technically interpreting. but the definition you quoted is just some guy's simplification of the function. i don't see why you're giving it so much weight.

    full interpretation really takes a judging function.

    I've never even heard of this concept, so I imagine it is your own personal observation.
    of course it is.

    you can either try to see what i'm saying or just blindly dismiss it because i'm somehow not credible.

    if you think about it, everything we read about type is personal observation.

    The definition I posted earlier said, "Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data". Every function has to take in data to work, but the type of data that Ni takes in is in no way "external." Other functions take in external data, whereas Ni utilizes "internal" data that has been filtered and derived by other functions. Hence why INTJs and INFJs can sometimes have proof put right in their face and still continue to deny it.
    i'm gonna go find a quote in jung's original book, but honestly, all perceiving functions can take in external data. the introverted ones just see external data as one tiny speck of information in a lifelong series, the extroverted ones see the data as all that matters.

    and honestly "foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data" doesn't even make any sense. implications of what? if it's implications of something external, it by definition takes in external data. if it's implications of something internal...well... so what?

Similar Threads

  1. [JCF] Fe(and maybe Te?) Question: Groups and your relationship to them
    By sculpting in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 01-10-2012, 06:37 PM
  2. Fe and Te balanced, is this possible?
    By CuriousFeeling in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-10-2010, 06:58 PM
  3. Why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te?
    By sofmarhof in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 02-23-2010, 03:57 PM
  4. [Fe] Fe and how it works
    By Poki in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 101
    Last Post: 09-04-2009, 12:57 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO