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  1. #21
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    Intuition is for nerds who like to think about things rather than to be doing things like us epically awsome sensors!

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    The day we begin to trust our senses and physical phenomena rather than our intuitions and non-physical phenomena will be an event greater, probably more significant, than any other in the history of the human race or ever will be!

  3. #23
    Member CreativeCait's Avatar
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    Is it possible to tell whether someone is using Ni or Ne IRL? What would you be looking for? Is Ni about comparing intuitive information to internal values and throughts? If so what would the expression of this look like in comparison with someone who is using Ne (like myself)??

  4. #24
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    You're gonna have to explain this a bit more because if you don't, it's just not something I buy. Ne users are Si users, but that does not mean that they're always used together. Just because we use Si also does not mean that it's based on something objective. There are certainly many instances of unrestrained Ne which have next to no bases in reality. Flights of fancy that are created through almost random cross-contextual thinking.
    i explained it here some time ago:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...137-ne-si.html

    im not saying that Si is objective. objective means that it is completely in line with the external world, Si has its origins from the external world, but its abstracted into subjective view of it.

    the thing you need to realize about how unconscious works, everything kinda gets mashed into one big pile there, its all undifferentiated, but compiled into themes(and if you evoke one thing of the theme, other stuff gets active also) and other things that dont really have a name, you should look at how neurons work and its easy to visualize how this stuff works. for example, there are neurons that represent a car, then there are other neurons connected to this, which show different qualities that a car can have, then these neurons together connect to other neurons that form all sorts of car models that you know etc etc. now further back you are to this theme of car(or even further in moving vehicle or cube or what ever), less conscious you are of what the actual thing is and easier it is to find things that match this thing and more they get mashed together into one big pile. intuition works by comparing these larger scale things together and looking at them from multiple angles, generating possibilities based on what is seen from it, because the thing is not yet so differentiated(looked down further from moving cube to a541 mercedes benz in red, with black leather seats which have 5mm wide golden stars on them.....). now when it comes to S, its about these things that are, which are consciously seen, N is the neural road, while S is the end of the road. but N combines these different ends to form a one big scale picture and thats how N is pretty much dependent on S. but when it comes to introversion and extraversion of these functions, its just about how much you trust the objective or subjective factor on them. if you trust your subjective perspective of facts, what you see as facts, not what your eyes present to you, you naturally trust more on the fact that there might be hidden possibilities behind what the external world shows you. this would make you NP or SJ type. NJ and SP types on the other hand do this the opposite way, trust what the external world presents to them and use the external world as sort of a guide line to the possibilities that they create in their head, they compare the external world as it is to the internal stuff i mentioned in Ni description). NJ types naturally are more selective about the external sensations and tend to miss some of them than SP types, since SP types are more focused on 'what is', while Ni types are more focused on 'what if's triggered by some particular 'what is's of the external world.

    when it comes to Ne having no basis on reality, it does have(like you mentioned, its just almost no basis), but its just not consciously perceived and might be so twisted and facts so abstracted from the thing in external world that evoked them, thats its impossible to recognize them anymore.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #25
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    my research says differently.

    there are two dichotomous dimensions for evaluation.

    the first includes Introversion and Extroversion.
    indicated by your OP, it appears you understand these elements.
    where Introversion is to focus on the subject, Extroversion focuses on the object.

    the second differentiates Judgement and Perception.
    this dimension is a bit more complicated, as it contains two more dichotomous dimensions.
    Judgement functions are rational [conscious] and, by contrast, Perception represents irrational [unconscious] processes.

    Judgement includes Feeling and Thinking. both rational, both conscious.
    Perception includes iNtuition and Sensing. both irrational, both unconscious.
    i won't get into the valuation of these just yet.

    if we say a Perception "becomes" conscious, what we actually mean is that it is being dealt with by the conscious Judgement.
    i don't like to say that Perception parcels information to be dealt with by Judgement, because it can be confusing, since what Judgement does can also be described as parceling.
    but unfortunately, that's basically what's happening. Perception happens unconsciously. the information is brought to consciousness [or not] and then we make a Judgement over it using Thinking or Feeling.

    Sensing is necessarily concrete, unconscious perception.
    iNtuition must then necessarily be non-concrete, unconscious perception. this is known as abstraction.

    where Sensation makes us aware of our physical environment and/or self, iNtuition makes us aware of the abstractions present in our environment/selves. most commonly, [especially pertaining to Ne] these are "links" between two or more items or ideas. but the links are abstract i.e. not physically present in either our environment or memory.
    rationality vs irrationality is not conscious vs unconscious. where did you get that idea from?

    its pretty absurd to claim that you are not conscious about what you see, before you determine its value or think about what it is that you see..

    its easy to debunk this theory of yours by looking at basics on how functions relate to brain areas. both T and Fi require frontal lobe(Fe seems to use temporal lobe also). visual information is processed in occipital lobe and consciousness arises when something comes from cerebral cortex to limbic system(or some areas on limbic system and close to it). visual information to travel to these areas where it comes to consciousness doesent require usage of areas where T and F are, therefore, you cant say that T or F are needed for sensations to become conscious. also, visual illusions prove that judgment cant even over ride the sensations that your visual(or somatosensory) system is providing. if this theory of yours were true, visual illusions would disappear once you know its an illusion and have judged it as an illusion. this theory of yours pretty much goes against everything that people know about brain functioning today.(i could give tons of examples like this from the field of neuro and cognitive psychology, but i think i made my point clear with those)

    i also disagree with that thing about these links not being presented in our memory, it makes no sense if you have any idea how brains work. i do agree that the individual memories doesent always get triggered, but thats the whole point in intuition, the path gets triggered, but the path is in your memory, its just that the individual points are not recalled, or else they couldnt be compared to other things so easily to generate possibilities.

    the words abstractions, concrete etc have so many possible meaning that its impossible to tell what you are trying to say with them, since you clearly arent using the same definitions as jung used.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #26
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    contemplation doesent require N, but ofc N can guide contemplation to certain directions actively(meaning during it), like it does guide our thinking and feeling more often than people realize
    Well yes, especially in the case of dominant intuitives because in the words of jung:

    Hence the auxiliary function is possible only in so far as it serves the dominant function, without making any claim to the autonomy of it's own principal.
    In other words everything less dominant than the dominant is also subject to to it, so for example, Fe would be altered through Ni in an INFJ. The same also goes for those 'lesser' functions as well.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  7. #27
    Member COLORATURA's Avatar
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    I really like these definitions...
    Ni:

    Without Introverted Intuitive personality types, it is said that Israel would have had no prophets. Under deceptively conventional appearances lie perceptive minds that travel the breadth and depth of universal mysteries, contemplating its multilayered complexity, seeking the trends that will define the future. With time, clarity of vision comes. When it comes, they are propelled towards the vision and all their actions lead to it. They are perseverant behind a quiet exterior and will often come back with their vision long after everyone believes they have let it go.

    What they see is so clear and obvious to them they are often surprised to find that others cannot see it as well. They may find it difficult to articulate the necessary steps towards implementation or to explain how each goal fits into the larger picture.

    Their mind usually travels from the past to the future, seeking to fit a particular situation in a large context. It picks up patterns, symbols and images from different seemingly unrelated fields, identifies similarities and provides meaning. This can help solve problems by juxtaposing ideas, finding analogies or simply by rooting out the quintessential reality, discovering the origin in universal stories and human experiences, culling wisdom from the infinitely small to the infinitely large. Their mind naturally travels from the microcosm to the macrocosm.

    They regularly have to face the difficulties of bringing dreams into reality. The time and effort it takes is always more than what their intuition initially suggested. They are determined, perseverant, inspired and often see things just around the corner, into the near or far future.

    Ne:

    With Extraverted Intuitive personality types, words, ideas and possibilities spew effortlessly from them. Words are their best friends. They dance around ideas, the more, the merrier. Imaginative, spontaneous, original and enthusiastic, they have a knack for seeing other possibilities, other dreams and options. The world is never as it is but as it could be, as if it were but an artists sketch begging for colour. They initiate change and often are prone to trespassing a few known boundaries to take themselves and others where no one has been before. The status quo tends to lack inspiration.

    When inspired, they are fearless and tireless. Their energy will know no limits unless red tape takes over. Routine drags them down. Their faith in possibilities and belief in the benefit of change often inspire others to follow. They are challenging, ingenious and innovative. They will give their best to what appears to be an impossible challenge, a place unknown to man or beast.

    They use metaphors, stories, images and analogies to make their point.They love theories and often shape their own. They see patterns emerging. Keen improvisers, they are rarely caught off guard, there is always something up their sleeve. The sky is the only limit.

    They are sometimes entertainers, artists or otherwise engaged in public demonstrations that allow their ideas to bloom. Their greatest difficulty is not in initiating projects but in choosing among so many possibilities, setting realistic boundaries, establishing priorities and correctly assessing resources.

    (Side note)

    This definition of Ti REALLY hit home for me, and, was also from the same place as the other definitions:

    Rodin's Thinker is introverted. Here these thinkers ponder the apparent chaos of the world in order to extract from it the universal truths and principles that can be counted on. These principles, once extracted, will provide the logical structure on which to build strategies.

    Introverted Thinking personality types have a finely nuanced ability to analyse situations, find root causes and foresee consequences. They distrust action taken too quickly without the necessary investigation. They are usually levelheaded, objective, impersonal yet intensely involved in problem solving. They are fiercely independent, seeking input and comments from a chosen few. When reporting to others, they need to establish credibility first: their own and that of the person they are reporting to. If the gap in knowledge and expertise is too great and their own proficiency dismissed, belittled or ignored, they will lose interest and motivation.

    They are less interested in running the world as they are in understanding it. They are curious and capable of explaining complex political, economic or technological problems, taking great pleasure in explaining all the factors and intricacies. They are rigorous with their thoughts and analysis, choosing the exact words that convey precisely what is meant. They may spend a lot of time defining words, concepts and systems in order to define a problematic solution.

    They are armchair detectives, scientists and philosophers, spending most of their time in quiet reflection to ponder truth, and solve mysteries. They may tend to neglect social requirements and responsibilities, finding many relationships to be too superficial to be of much interest.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    she is INFJ, INFJs doesent use neither Ne or Si. also, claiming that its Ne and Si to recognize belonging on predetermined mold is just lol
    Well, if you haven't caught on yet I'm saying she is mistyped and secondly why does that not make sense?

    You described Si and Ne as: "how things have been before and what seems plausible according to the things that have been before."

    If she is relating and agreeing with the description and that functions definition has always been so she is comparing to how things have been before.

    While Ni-Se is a personalized description based on symbols that the user interprets themselves. So, yes, she could have the same view as another on how Ni works, but that to me shows Si since it goes back to agreeing on a description that is "objectively" interpreted.

  9. #29
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    well, i tried.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    the words abstractions, concrete etc have so many possible meaning that its impossible to tell what you are trying to say with them, since you clearly arent using the same definitions as jung used.
    no theory here is mine. i'm using precisely the wording jung used himself.
    advise read more jung.
    we fukin won boys

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    well, i tried.

    no theory here is mine. i'm using precisely the wording jung used himself.
    advise read more jung.
    you got confused about something and are drawing some false conclusions. concrete sensation is not the only conscious form of sensation. abstract sensation jung says that is a product of differentiation, which means that its an conscious process, yet there is no judgment involved. and since you talk such weird things and dont seem to understand stuff properly, i should explain that concrete sensations are these which you claim only to be conscious forms of sensation, where the sensation gets mixed up with ideas or judgments.

    you clearly added the [conscious] and [unconscious] next to rational and irrational, otherwise it seemed to be from jung.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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