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  1. #21
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Focus on communicating the facts without creating a caricature in your mind about the "stupidity" of other people. When facts are communicated in a socially and emotionally demeaning manner, rather than a clear, objective manner, people get insulted. It's not the facts, but the need for social dominance that offends others. I would say to Te doms who often offend to step back and get a clear sense of where your literal objectivity about the facts ends and where your personal need to be right and superior to others begins.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #22
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Well depends on the weight of the barrel and the type of vertical and lateral momentum that fish can get and the gravity in that place, and how plastic its body is (the speed of deceleration so the rate of transfer of the momentum into an equal and opposed force of acceleration in the opposite direction for the barrel (-entropy loss) .. ), salinity levels will play a role as well. Now the question is: if the fish gets out of the barrel will it die ? Is there water around ?
    if the barrel is in the sea or in water ALREADY the fish doesnt need much to get out of it... Except if the gravity is really SUPER strong. Though bodies do not take gravity differentials in the same way in water but of course the inertia remains the same so , still.
    Ok let's say that the fish is out of shape and hasn't been swimming much. The gravity is that of Earth with the added bonus of being serious so it is quite heavy. Let's say that the salinity is in the euhaline region at a mouth puckering 33. Let's also say that the fish in the barrel is surrounded by other barrels full of fish. Some fish will eat it. Other fish will be eaten by it.

  3. #23
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Ok let's say that the fish is out of shape and hasn't been swimming much. The gravity is that of Earth with the added bonus of being serious so it is quite heavy. Let's say that the salinity is in the euhaline region at a mouth puckering 33. Let's also say that the fish in the barrel is surrounded by other barrels full of fish. Some fish will eat it. Other fish will be eaten by it.
    Is the distribution random or is there a pattern ? Like big fishes next to small fish barrels ? was it choosen by a computer or by people or maybe aliens ? You d have to know their bias when it comes to ''randomnity''. Also if they re barrels it still leaves gaps. are there also barrels UNDERNEATH ? to catch the fallen fishes?
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    And the award for self congratulatory oxymoron of the year goes to ...
    What's your issue with me?

  5. #25
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Is the distribution random or is there a pattern ? Like big fishes next to small fish barrels ? was it choosen by a computer or by people or maybe aliens ? You d have to know their bias when it comes to ''randomnity''. Also if they re barrels it still leaves gaps. are there also barrels UNDERNEATH ? to catch the fallen fishes?
    Good questions. I just checked with the architect.

    Apparently here is the strata:

    First layer: spikes at 1 spike per square inch, 4" long, needle circumference.
    Second layer: a ratio of 8 large fish to 2 small fish.
    Third Layer: a ratio of 7 large fish to 3 small fish.
    Fourth Layer: a ratio of 6 large fish to 4 small fish.
    Fifth Layer: a ratio of 5 large fish to 5 small fish.
    Sixth Layer: a ratio of 4 large fish to 6 small fish.
    Seventh Layer: a ratio of 3 large fish to 7 small fish.
    Eighth Layer: a ratio of 2 large fish to 8 small fish.
    Ninth Layer: a ratio of 1 large fish to 9 small fish.
    Tenth Layer: a ratio of 0 large fish to 10 small fish.

    Distribution pattern is set at random by an unbiased computer programmed by an unbiased alien race (humans being alien in this case since the subject is fish).

  6. #26
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    My though exactly , what explains why there is no TJs in this thread.
    Well, I'm glad that we are in agreement sir.

  7. #27
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    My though exactly , what explains why there is no TJs in this thread.
    A dismissal of the impact of communication is not always logical if it causes a person setbacks towards reaching their goals. While it's true that a thread like this won't progress a person towards any goal, at least considering the topic and reaching a reasonable conclusion will.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #28
    garbage
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    1. First of all I wanted to give a picture of why Te has to be blunt and why it is in it's nature is to shake thing up. Otherwise it may not even be Te that you are actaully using or you support it heaviliy with Fe , Ne or Ti ... etc. (I am one of the people that thinks that we use all 8 functions , now the only thing that is under question here are ratios)

    2. I am not exactly a member of western civiliazation and culture. So what you have wrote is not 100% true for my environment.
    Especially since the legacy of communism and feudalism is still pretty fresh ..... what makes most of the people pretty submissive. So when you hit them with what you call "rudness" there are pretty good odds that you will get what you want. (if you are not trully over the line and you ask for something realistic)

    The reason why I have started that capitalism thread that ended in Political sub-forum is exactlly because I never felt that I am enough in control of my own life or that my environment is furfilling even the ..... lets call it "minimum of efficiency".
    Okay, this is a very valuable perspective.

    I knew that there was a cultural difference, but I wasn't aware of its magnitude. I didn't realize that there was such a large difference--that what we may perceive as "rude" may be normal way of speaking in your culture. So, it'd make sense that you'd speak "bluntly" and expect that from others.

    In the states, I believe that it's still best when we can communicate directly--which tends to happen in our most trusted relationships, when we've established that the other party is aligned with our general interests and that they don't necessarily mean us harm. The trouble becomes a spectrum between "direct and assertive" and "being an ass"--too often, people unnecessarily get offended by directness; but at the same time, sometimes the direct people can become insulting in a way that shuts the other party down.

    If we're talking about 'using Te,' messages are at their best when they're direct; they're at their worst when they become domineering. In the latter case, arguments are made with force and shaming--which is less about seeking the truth and more about asserting it.

    I'll have to check out the capitalism thread.

  9. #29
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Well, to counter the arguments of the two Ones (i.e. the Great One and the Antisocial One) -- here's a TJ who knows how to keep her Te in check. Living evidence that you can have Te as your dominant function and not make everyone into your enemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Te can be detached and reasonable though. I think that's mature Te. Te that's not childish can just come across as kind of impersonal and even-handed and matter of fact.
    This is a perfect articulation of what I strive for, with my Te use.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    lol, I knew that it had to be an ENFP who posted this, because a Te dom could give less of a shit if they piss people off with what they do. That's more of an Fe thing or an Fi thing to avoid confrontation.
    Not really. If you want respect, you should be respectful -- and being respectful often means subduing your Te.
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Explain yourself in a way that doesn't scream "how do you not understand this" to other people.

    Just don't be a dick about it.
    This is good too. I completely agree with this.
    "Don't be a dick" is a good philosophy to live by.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    The reason for this is because the functions are so different depending on what place they are in for people. I find te-doms/aux to be less annoying with their Te versus Te-tert/inf types. Te for the former are like swords in the hand of a master, simply an extension of self and will be directed with confidence. Te for the latter are children getting into their father's armory. Very clunky and out of control.
    Yeah, discussions with FPs can be really annoying, depending on the SPs; there's nothing quite like trying to discuss something reasonably with someone who can't express their Te without having extremely sensitive and reactive Fi tightly wound around it. In other words -- they can turn impersonal topics personal, very quickly and abruptly. (Especially FP counterphobic Sixes!)

    This isn't to say that all FPs are like this -- only the ones with especially poor Te control.


    Edit regarding the culture factor: That makes sense. There are obviously cultural differences between everyone's definition of "asshole behavior". But I would still say, regardless of where you live, there are degrees of uncensored and/or poorly phrased honesty that are frowned upon, and those are the ones to avoid.

    Another edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    A dismissal of the impact of communication is not always logical if it causes a person setbacks towards reaching their goals. While it's true that a thread like this won't progress a person towards any goal, at least considering the topic and reaching a reasonable conclusion will.
    This too. Te subduing is always strategic. If you benefit from cushioning* your honesty, why shouldn't you do it?
    (And don't say "because I shouldn't have to". That's irrational! )

    *Note that I didn't say "eliminating". Like I said earlier in the post, be honest, but don't be a dick!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  10. #30
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Okay, this is a very valuable perspective.

    I knew that there was a cultural difference, but I wasn't aware of its magnitude. I didn't realize that there was such a large difference--that what we may perceive as "rude" may be normal way of speaking in your culture. So, it'd make sense that you'd speak "bluntly" and expect that from others.

    In the states, I believe that it's still best when we can communicate directly--which tends to happen in our most trusted relationships, when we've established that the other party is aligned with our general interests and that they don't necessarily mean us harm. The trouble becomes a spectrum between "direct and assertive" and "being an ass"--too often, people unnecessarily get offended by directness; but at the same time, sometimes the direct people can become insulting in a way that shuts the other party down.

    If we're talking about 'using Te,' messages are at their best when they're direct; they're at their worst when they become domineering. In the latter case, arguments are made with force and shaming--which is less about seeking the truth and more about asserting it.

    I'll have to check out the capitalism thread.


    If I have to type the culture I would say ESTP and mix of 7w8 and 6w7 for enneagram. The thing is that you can't do what you want .... especially if you are trully over the line. However everything is structured in a very P-ish way so as soon as someone has reasonable idea others follow. (and as a NTJ I am talented in this area)

    The only problem with Te is that people dont really want structure .... they just want to fix the problem that is in front of them.



    The thing is that if we overlook the period between year 2000 and now the only thing that you had in this country are : totalitarian regimes , revolutions , wars with neighbours , civil wars ...... you name it. Basically the last time this place was organized and orderly was in the times of the Roman empire. (and then we came down from the north and burned down the empire)


    For example take a look at a life of my ISTP grandfather: in his life he lived in 5 different countries , survived 3 pretty bloody wars and changed currency for 6 times (if I haven't overlooked something) ..... and yet he lived all his life on the same piece of land.

    What does that tell you ?


    That means that this place is extremely politically unstable. So there was no foundation or time to build more subtle ways of communication. (for most people)


    Actually if you are too nice there is a good probability that the people will think that you are being manipulative or that you are gay.

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