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Thread: David Keirsey.

  1. #1
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Default David Keirsey.

    Im curious what others opinions of his theory are?

    Personally I think he is right on some things, but extremely wrong on others and worst of all his theory comes across as little more than the typing of persona's as induced by social environments and needs.

    I think it is satisfying for those who just want to dip into personality theories as if they are an astrology of the mind, but I often worry that the way in which his types and the 4 temperaments are written, that it does little more than confuse people and help them decend into stereotyped opinions.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    persona(latin for a mask of an actor) is not personality(winnocotts theory of false self is close to persona) and persona is induced by social environment and needs, its one of the most used jungian terms in the field of psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon/p
    Persona
    The “I,” usually ideal aspects of ourselves, that we present to the outside world.


    "The persona is . . . a functional complex that comes into existence for reasons of adaptation or personal convenience."[Ibid., par. 801.]

    "The persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is."["Concerning Rebirth," CW 9i, par. 221.]

    Originally the word persona meant a mask worn by actors to indicate the role they played. On this level, it is both a protective covering and an asset in mixing with other people. Civilized society depends on interactions between people through the persona.

    "There are indeed people who lack a developed persona . . . blundering from one social solecism to the next, perfectly harmless and innocent, soulful bores or appealing children, or, if they are women, spectral Cassandras dreaded for their tactlessness, eternally misunderstood, never knowing what they are about, always taking forgiveness for granted, blind to the world, hopeless dreamers. From them we can see how a neglected persona works."["Anima and Animus," CW 7, par. 318.]

    Before the persona has been differentiated from the ego, the persona is experienced as individuality. In fact, as a social identity on the one hand and an ideal image on the other, there is little individual about it.

    "It is, as its name implies, only a mask of the collective psyche, a mask that feigns individuality, making others and oneself believe that one is individual, whereas one is simply acting a role through which the collective psyche speaks.
    When we analyse the persona we strip off the mask, and discover that what seemed to be individual is at bottom collective; in other words, that the persona was only a mask of the collective psyche. Fundamentally the persona is nothing real: it is a compromise between individual and society as to what a man should appear to be. He takes a name, earns a title, exercises a function, he is this or that. In a certain sense all this is real, yet in relation to the essential individuality of the person concerned it is only a secondary reality, a compromise formation, in making which others often have a greater share than he." ["The Persona as a Segment of the Collective Psyche," ibid., pars. 245f.]

    A psychological understanding of the persona as a function of relationship to the outside world makes it possible to assume and drop one at will. But by rewarding a particular persona, the outside world invites identification with it. Money, respect and power come to those who can perform single-mindedly and well in a social role. From being a useful convenience, therefore, the persona may become a trap and a source of neurosis.

    "A man cannot get rid of himself in favour of an artificial personality without punishment. Even the attempt to do so brings on, in all ordinary cases, unconscious reactions in the form of bad moods, affects, phobias, obsessive ideas, backsliding vices, etc. The social “strong man” is in his private life often a mere child where his own states of feeling are concerned."["Anima and Animus," ibid., par. 307.]

    "The demands of propriety and good manners are an added inducement to assume a becoming mask. What goes on behind the mask is then called “private life.” This painfully familiar division of consciousness into two figures, often preposterously different, is an incisive psychological operation that is bound to have repercussions on the unconscious."[Ibid., par. 305.]

    Among the consequences of identifying with a persona are: we lose sight of who we are without a protective covering; our reactions are predetermined by collective expectations (we do and think and feel what our persona “should” do, think and feel); those close to us complain of our emotional distance; and we cannot imagine life without it.

    To the extent that ego-consciousness is identified with the persona, the neglected inner life (personified in the shadow and anima or animus) is activated in compensation. The consequences, experienced in symptoms characteristic of neurosis, can stimulate the process of individuation.

    "There is, after all, something individual in the peculiar choice and delineation of the persona, and . . . despite the exclusive identity of the ego-consciousness with the persona the unconscious self, one’s real individuality, is always present and makes itself felt indirectly if not directly. Although the ego-consciousness is at first identical with the persona-that compromise role in which we parade before the community-yet the unconscious self can never be repressed to the point of extinction. Its influence is chiefly manifest in the special nature of the contrasting and compensating contents of the unconscious. The purely personal attitude of the conscious mind evokes reactions on the part of the unconscious, and these, together with personal repressions, contain the seeds of individual development."["The Persona as a Segment of the Collective Psyche," ibid., par. 247.]
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    But that's the problem, in his original book he passes off persona's and their behaviour as if they are indicative of personality.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    But that's the problem, in his original book he passes off persona's and their behaviour as if they are indicative of personality.
    ah you meant that, you didnt mention that he saw persona as part of typology at op. assuming that you mean that now, as typology isnt seen as whole personality by jungians, persona, complexes, anima etc are part of personality, even tho they arent part of psychological types/typology, thats why jung referred types as psychological types, not personality types, like MBTI/whatevers do
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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    You have to look at it as a separate system. My persona is Performer, I can even see evidence of this as a child, and I've posted a couple of videos of myself on the Keirsey forum and that's what they said, too. I actually like PTypes Exuberant personality best, though, which is roughly correlated to a Keirsey ISFP...it sounds EXACTLY like me. PTypes is slightly different though. On Best Fit I relate a little bit to both ESFP and ISFP. It's because it's all "persona" though, not functions.

    My ISTJ has something of an ISFJ persona (he's always doing things like housework and taking care of dogs and he's very in touch with his Fi, as well as being highly aesthetic) but it's very clear he has no sense of Fe. He says things like "I hate people but pretend to be nice so they'll go away" and things like that. No sense of Fe, much more of a need to control the external environment with objective logic than to organize people and collective morality. Very cold and reserved about his feelings, hard time being expressive, more Fi, like he's protecting a gooey center ...and yeah. He also relates to the description of an ISTJ child. For example, he never believed in a god, because he thought it was preposterously illogical.

    So I can have an ESFP persona but be a functional ISFP, and he can have an ISFJ persona and be a functional ISTJ. Interestingly, though, we still relate to the temperament we're supposed to be in.

    When I read about the NF temperament, I was almost *offended.* I was like, nope, not me - but I realized I liked the Artisan temperament more, and it made sense to me, despite Keirsey's stereotypes about SPs having less verbal intelligence.

    I went into detail here as to what I have a problem with about Keirsey.

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    I love David Keirsey's almighty title for INTPs, the Architect, the ultimate designer of the fabric of existence, who understands how all the parts in the blueprint are interconnected, pretty much what God is. That makes my MBTI type GOD!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I love David Keirsey's almighty title for INTPs, the Architect, the ultimate designer of the fabric of existence, who understands how all the parts in the blueprint are interconnected, pretty much what God is. That makes my MBTI type GOD!
    Actually if you go over to the Keirsey site his son will say you're a freak if you think you're an NT and simultaneously believe in a god.

    So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

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    Senior Member Oeufa's Avatar
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    Keirsey's theory is a little simplistic, and he seems to be a bit critical of Sensors, especially Guardians (SJs). He states how there's no good or bad personality type, but his sections on the SJs have a lot more negatives than the others which I found more balanced.

    Plus, he really only has 4 types, not 16. He doesn't make huge distinctions between the 4 types of each category.
    Ti>Ne>Si>Te>Fi>Ni>Se=Fe

    And yes, there are such things as INTPs who overuse emoticons

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oeufa View Post
    Keirsey's theory is a little simplistic, and he seems to be a bit critical of Sensors, especially Guardians (SJs). He states how there's no good or bad personality type, but his sections on the SJs have a lot more negatives than the others which I found more balanced.
    I didn't find his description of SPs any more negative than the others. SJs ARE melancholic and being critical is a negative trait of Si, like an SJ in a bad mood is probably going to be critical, controlling, nit-picky...even in function theory...while an SP or Se type may be too impulsive, taking action without thinking...and I actually relate to that. Me at my worst, I engage in fights with people that I shouldn't, for example. I can have bad impulses sometimes because I'm too in the moment and get excited about whatever is happening.

    It can be in your perception as well, the ISTJ I mentioned above actually *likes* the Guardian matrix. And I thought the NF Idealist description made all NFs sound like a bunch of non-confrontational social workers who are never satisfied with who their romantic partner actually is.

    Still, I agree that he obviously had some personal bias toward Ns, I won't disagree with you there, and his sexual description of the SJs is absolutely absurd. Remember, though, he mentioned that NTs (he's an NT himself) clash most with SJs.

  10. #10
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    SJs ARE melancholic and being critical is a negative trait of Si, like an SJ in a bad mood is probably going to be critical, controlling, nit-picky....
    Huh? Where is this stated? This is why im somewhat against both MBTI and Keirsey it is because of these theories that such ideas are held.

    Ive never heard of being critical as being a negative trait of Si as a function before, if anything it would be Te and Fe that do this, as I said before, by going off Jung's descriptions.

    Si is just perception, how can it possibly make an evaluation? This is for the realm of judging functions. Of course you did save it a little by saying SJ, but then again that's a keirsey influence....
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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