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Thread: David Keirsey.

  1. #11
    Senior Member Oeufa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Still, I agree that he obviously had some personal bias toward Ns, I won't disagree with you there, and his sexual description of the SJs is absolutely absurd. Remember, though, he mentioned that NTs (he's an NT himself) clash most with SJs.
    I dunno, I just always got the impression from his book that he thought all intuitives were basically the most awesome people ever (if misunderstood), whereas sensors were dull and generally less intelligent. Which is bullshit I think he overplayed the conflict between NTs and SJs too; it's like he believes all Guardians are boring arseholes with a vendetta to quash the free-spirit of the vice-free Rational Wonderboy . Maybe I'm reading a bit much into it though

    I think he's lost some of his edginess between Please Understand Me and PUM II though.
    Ti>Ne>Si>Te>Fi>Ni>Se=Fe

    And yes, there are such things as INTPs who overuse emoticons

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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Huh? Where is this stated? This is why im somewhat against both MBTI and Keirsey it is because of these theories that such ideas are held.

    Ive never heard of being critical as being a negative trait of Si as a function before, if anything it would be Te and Fe that do this, as I said before, by going off Jung's descriptions.

    Si is just perception, how can it possibly make an evaluation? This is for the realm of judging functions. Of course you did save it a little by saying SJ, but then again that's a keirsey influence....
    then maybe you don't know your Jungian theory as well as you think you do. Jung says that Si makes the too high lower and the too low higher in accordance with their own internal perception. Coupled with Je, which all SJs have, this making things "just right" to their own mind can certainly come out as controlling about their own personal nit-pick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Actually if you go over to the Keirsey site his son will say you're a freak if you think you're an NT and simultaneously believe in a god.

    So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
    This statement is false. I can claim to be any type I want to be. Now does it actually make me that type? Of course not, but it is fun to pretend so. I do not take this typology stuff too seriously anyway.

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    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Huh? Where is this stated? This is why im somewhat against both MBTI and Keirsey it is because of these theories that such ideas are held.

    Ive never heard of being critical as being a negative trait of Si as a function before, if anything it would be Te and Fe that do this, as I said before, by going off Jung's descriptions.

    Si is just perception, how can it possibly make an evaluation? This is for the realm of judging functions. Of course you did save it a little by saying SJ, but then again that's a keirsey influence....
    A lot of times the theories created tell you a lot more about the creator of the theory then about the subject they're expounding upon.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    then maybe you don't know your Jungian theory as well as you think you do. Jung says that Si makes the too high lower and the too low higher in accordance with their own internal perception. Coupled with Je, which all SJs have, this making things "just right" to their own mind can certainly come out as controlling about their own personal nit-pick.
    No I did read that part and I knew someone would intepretate it as such, but actually he mentions that this makes them a menace to their environment, (if anything being rebellious), what he refers to is the too low or too high of the individuals personality, in that the person subordinates themselves to their own perceptions not others. It isnt anything to do with enforcing it on others as he states with Te where the user will subject all to the formula. At most the Si dom might enforce his own sanctions on the object so as to escape it's influence, but this is no different from what Jung writes of any introvert and is merely a way of keeping the person's individual nature, it has nothing to do with adhering to social or cultural systems of doing things.

    Also dont forget this passage afterwards:
    "In that case he easily becomes a victim of the aggressiveness and domineeringness of others.
    The nature of his own self inflicted subordination based around his highly personalised sense impressions means he is actually being subjected by others, there is nothing there about adopting others methods for the enforcing of tradition. Thus the type then lashes out at others:

    Such men allow themselves to be abused and then take their revenge on the most unsuitable occasions with redoubled obtuseness and stubborness.
    But this is still nothing to do with traditionalism. It takes a leap of logic somewhat removed from what Jung is actually saying to reach that conclusion.

    Now you could make the case that using the MBTI system of Si coupled with an extroverted judging function results in something like the Keirsey SJ temperament, but that has not been what im arguing and such a concoction is the result of more than one function and therefore has nothing to do with Si as it stands alone, which is my point.

    Yes Jung mentions the auxiliary, but he mentions that any other functions will always be subordinate to the dominant which contradicts the MBTI idea of Si being influenced by the judging function, it would actually be the other way around, Si would be the pro-active and Te or Fe would be re-active. So any formulaic tendencies of Fe or Te would be subject to personalised sense impressions of an almost delusional nature, how could that ever result in traditionalism?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    A lot of times the theories created tell you a lot more about the creator of the theory then about the subject they're expounding upon.
    Total agreement here. It's often said that Ausra, creator of Socionics, placed a shitton of emphasis on duality because of her own relationship issues.

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    @RaptorWizard I said nothing false. Keirsey Jr asserted that he does not believe nts to ever be religious. Therefore Keirsey was certainly not describing your type as god. Furthermore he'd say you weren't nt most likely. So drop the silliness. If you want to be a religious nt, better stick with Jung.

    @AffirmitiveAnxiety Si does not live in a vacuum. In SJs its in tandem with Je. Making what I said still accurate.

    Unless you're a purist who believes Si is supported by undifferentiated Feeling or Thinking, in which case you need to stop using the term SJ entirely.

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    @AffirmitiveAnxiety also I said nothing about traditions so Im not sure what that part of your post was directed toward. Si is oriented toward the personal sensory past, though.

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    @Marmie Dearest Me masquerading as God has nothing to do with whether or not I actually believe in him. Again you are taking the typology too seriously. Albert Einstein for example was diagnosed by Keirsey as an NT, and Albert Einstein was quotes as saying, "Science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind." Einstein also said, "All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree." He was not religious in the traditional sense but nonetheless he also had beliefs about God, for example when Einstein wrote the following essay (it is very long):

    Religion and Science (1930)Originally written for the New York Times Magazine (9 November 1930). A version with altered wording appeared in Ideas and Opinions (1954)

    Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of deeply felt needs and the assuagement of pain.
    it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints.Everything that men do or think concerns the satisfaction of the needs they feel or the escape from pain. This must be kept in mind when we seek to understand spiritual or intellectual movements and the way in which they develop. For feelings and longings are the motive forces of all human striving and productivity—however nobly these latter may display themselves to us.
    Wording in Ideas and Opinions: Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of deeply felt needs and the assuagement of pain. One has to keep this constantly in mind if one wishes to understand spiritual movements and their development. Feeling and longing are the motive force behind all human endeavor and human creation, in however exalted a guise the latter may present themselves to us.
    The longing for guidance, for love and succor, provides the stimulus for the growth of a social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence, who protects, decides, rewards and punishes. This is the God who, according to man's widening horizon, loves and provides for the life of the race, or of mankind, or who even loves life itself. He is the comforter in unhappiness and in unsatisfied longing, the protector of the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral idea of God.
    Wording in Ideas and Opinions: The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence, who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes; the God who, according to the limits of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even of life itself; the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing; he who preserves the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral conception of God.
    It is easy to follow in the sacred writings of the Jewish people the development of the religion of fear into the moral religion, which is carried further in the New Testament. The religions of all civilized peoples, especially those of the Orient, are principally moral religions. An important advance in the life of a people is the transformation of the religion of fear into the moral religion. But one must avoid the prejudice that regards the religions of primitive peoples as pure fear religions and those of the civilized races as pure moral religions. All are mixed forms, though the moral element predominates in the higher levels of social life.
    Wording in Ideas and Opinions: The Jewish scriptures admirably illustrate the development from the religion of fear to moral religion, a development continued in the New Testament. The religions of all civilized peoples, especially the peoples of the Orient, are primarily moral religions. The development from a religion of fear to moral religion is a great step in peoples' lives. And yet, that primitive religions are based entirely on fear and the religions of civilized peoples purely on morality is a prejudice against which we must be on our guard. The truth is that all religions are a varying blend of both types, with this differentiation: that on the higher levels of social life the religion of morality predominates.
    Common to all these types is the anthropomorphic character of the idea of God. Only exceptionally gifted individuals or especially noble communities rise essentially above this level; in these there is found a third level of religious experience, even if it is seldom found in a pure form. I will call it the cosmic religious sense. This is hard to make clear to those who do not experience it, since it does not involve an anthropomorphic idea of God; the individual feels the vanity of human desires and aims, and the nobility and marvelous order which are revealed in nature and in the world of thought. He feels the individual destiny as an imprisonment and seeks to experience the totality of existence as a unity full of significance. Indications of this cosmic religious sense can be found even on earlier levels of development—for example, in the Psalms of David and in the Prophets. The cosmic element is much stronger in Buddhism, as, in particular, Schopenhauer's magnificent essays have shown us. The religious geniuses of all times have been distinguished by this cosmic religious sense, which recognizes neither dogmas nor God made in man's image. Consequently there cannot be a church whose chief doctrines are based on the cosmic religious experience. It comes about, therefore, that we find precisely among the heretics of all ages men who were inspired by this highest religious experience; often they appeared to their contemporaries as atheists, but sometimes also as saints. Viewed from this angle, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are near to one another.
    Wording in Ideas and Opinions: Common to all these types is the anthropomorphic character of their conception of God. In general, only individuals of exceptional endowments, and exceptionally high-minded communities, rise to any considerable extent above this level. But there is a third stage of religious experience which belongs to all of them, even though it is rarely found in a pure form: I shall call it cosmic religious feeling. It is very difficult to elucidate this feeling to anyone who is entirely without it, especially as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it. The individual feels the futility of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of thought. Individual existence impresses him as a sort of prison and he wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole. The beginnings of cosmic religious feeling already appear at an early stage of development, e.g., in many of the Psalms of David and in some of the Prophets. Buddhism, as we have learned especially from the wonderful writings of Schopenhauer, contains a much stronger element of this. The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another.

    It is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.How can this cosmic religious experience be communicated from man to man, if it cannot lead to a definite conception of God or to a theology? It seems to me that the most important function of art and of science is to arouse and keep alive this feeling in those who are receptive.
    Wording in Ideas and Opinions: How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.
    For any one who is pervaded with the sense of causal law in all that happens, who accepts in real earnest the assumption of causality, the idea of Being who interferes with the sequence of events in the world is absolutely impossible. Neither the religion of fear nor the social-moral religion can have any hold on him. A God who rewards and punishes is for him unthinkable, because man acts in accordance with an inner and outer necessity, and would, in the eyes of God, be as little responsible as an inanimate object is for the movements which it makes. Science, in consequence, has been accused of undermining morals—but wrongly. The ethical behavior of man is better based on sympathy, education and social relationships, and requires no support from religion. Man's plight would, indeed, be sad if he had to be kept in order through fear of punishment and hope of rewards after death.
    Wording in Ideas and Opinions: The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events — provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes. Science has therefore been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death.
    Variant: "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere" has been cited as a statement that precedes the last three sentences here, but in fact this is a separate quote from a 1947 letter Einstein wrote to Murray W. Gross, included in the Einstein and Religion (1999) section below (and in the letter the word used is "anthropomorphic," not "anthropological").
    It is, therefore, quite natural that the churches have always fought against science and have persecuted its supporters. But, on the other hand, I assert that the cosmic religious experience is the strongest and noblest driving force behind scientific research. No one who does not appreciate the terrific exertions, and, above all, the devotion without which pioneer creations in scientific thought cannot come into being, can judge the strength of the feeling out of which alone such work, turned away as it is from immediate practical life, can grow. What a deep faith in the rationality of the structure of the world and what a longing to understand even a small glimpse of the reason revealed in the world there must have been in Kepler and Newton to enable them to unravel the mechanism of the heavens in long years of lonely work! Any one who only knows scientific research in its practical applications may easily come to a wrong interpretation of the state of mind of the men who, surrounded by skeptical contemporaries, have shown the way to kindred spirits scattered over all countries in all centuries. Only those who have dedicated their lives to similar ends can have a living conception of the inspiration which gave these men the power to remain loyal to their purpose in spite of countless failures. It is the cosmic religious sense which grants this power. A contemporary has rightly said that the only deeply religious people of our largely materialistic age are the earnest men of research.
    Wording in Ideas and Opinions: It is therefore easy to see why the churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees. On the other hand, I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand, were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labor in disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics! Those whose acquaintance with scientific research is derived chiefly from its practical results easily develop a completely false notion of the mentality of the men who, surrounded by a skeptical world, have shown the way to kindred spirits scattered wide through the world and through the centuries. Only one who has devoted his life to similar ends can have a vivid realization of what has inspired these men and given them the strength to remain true to their purpose in spite of countless failures. It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man such strength. A contemporary has said, not unjustly, that in this materialistic age of ours the serious scientific workers are the only profoundly religious people.

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    Crazy troll is crazy. Bro I never said I agreed with Keirsey. Im just trying to help you get your theories straight. There are different systems. Period.

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