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  1. #1
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Default 7th Function Bias and Literary Archetype

    After doing a bit of research I found something interesting.

    Ni-dominants are usually cast as the villains in fiction. If they're not outright villains, usually the best they get is a distrusted position on the hero's side. Now, I saw a theory about how this bias could have been formed. If we take that American society is mainly based on ESTJ type (now don't attack me on this one, this is a generalization), then Ni would be in the 'deceiving' role to society and would make an easy target for a villain, or at least a character to be distrusted. Whether the writer be ESTJ or not, the archetype of a deceptive character with dom Ni would be so ingrained into society and just so available that it would end up happening a lot.

    I've been studying villains for a while, so I thought this was interesting because it made a lot of sense.

    So, what do you think? Archetypes for MBTI were partly derived from literary archetypes, but can the reverse be true? Or is this based on a fundamentally flawed premise, and the reason why there are so many Ni villains is totally different?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #2
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    yes!
    What I like is how the stereotype villian always tells you all thier plan 'cause thier so proud of it and then ends with the obviously false 'and there's nothing you can do about it' right when the told you exactly what to do about it.
    I don't know if the deceptive role is readily available, but what I do know is that Domni's often get the 'psycho' trap pulled on them-this is what happened to Nikola Tesla (and it didn't help that tesla was a bit of a psycho)

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    -this is what happened to Nikola Tesla (and it didn't help that tesla was a bit of a psycho)
    Why do you say he was a psycho?

  4. #4
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    After doing a bit of research I found something interesting.

    Ni-dominants are usually cast as the villains in fiction. If they're not outright villains, usually the best they get is a distrusted position on the hero's side. Now, I saw a theory about how this bias could have been formed. If we take that American society is mainly based on ESTJ type (now don't attack me on this one, this is a generalization), then Ni would be in the 'deceiving' role to society and would make an easy target for a villain, or at least a character to be distrusted. Whether the writer be ESTJ or not, the archetype of a deceptive character with dom Ni would be so ingrained into society and just so available that it would end up happening a lot.

    I've been studying villains for a while, so I thought this was interesting because it made a lot of sense.

    So, what do you think? Archetypes for MBTI were partly derived from literary archetypes, but can the reverse be true? Or is this based on a fundamentally flawed premise, and the reason why there are so many Ni villains is totally different?
    This was an awesome post! It's very interesting how heroes in America do seem to have some kind of underlying "anti-visionary" theme.

    I've always been very interested in how each of the 16 types could be expressed as a literary hero and villain. Some of my English professors say that the antagonist in a good novel is the same personality as a protagonist, only with different goals (and typically the antagonist has some degree of insanity). So I wonder what the good and evil archetypes of each would be.

    Meh. Someone needs to write out a MBTI version of this Amazon.com: The Literary Enneagram: Characters from the Inside Out: Judith Searle: Books.
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  5. #5
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I think a part of the problem is that while short bursts of intense creativity are encouraged (tertiary Ne? Maybe), something that plumbs the depth like dominant (or even auxilliary) Ni is discouraged.

    Probably because one thinks that Ni, without a root like Si, would easily stray over to the dark-side because of its depth of perception? That these out-of-the-ordinary point of views would quickly turn somebody to immorality -- or what the general consensus appears as so, even though this isn't the case.

    I don't know. Not all INJs are are Ivan Karamazov.

    "Without God and immortality, all things are permitted."
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I think a part of the problem is that while short bursts of intense creativity are encouraged (tertiary Ne? Maybe), something that plumbs the depth like dominant (or even auxilliary) Ni is discouraged.

    Probably because one thinks that Ni, without a root like Si, would easily stray over to the dark-side because of its depth of perception? That these out-of-the-ordinary point of views would quickly turn somebody to immorality -- or what the general consensus appears as so, even though this isn't the case.

    I don't know. Not all INJs are are Ivan Karamazov.

    "Without God and immortality, all things are permitted."
    From what I've experienced...it seems like "Oh, because you can see from the point of view of the bad guy/crazy man/serial killer/what-have-you, you must be evil/insane/crazy somewhere inside." Which isn't at all true, just because someone is able to entertain the idea of what it would be like to be in the position of the villain, does not mean they would choose to side with that person.

  7. #7
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    From what I've experienced...it seems like "Oh, because you can see from the point of view of the bad guy/crazy man/serial killer/what-have-you, you must be evil/insane/crazy somewhere inside." Which isn't at all true, just because someone is able to entertain the idea of what it would be like to be in the position of the villain, does not mean they would choose to side with that person.
    Just because someone can see that Hannibal Lecter might not exactly be a 'psychopath,' that there might not necessarily be anything wrong with him, doesn't mean that they'd let him out.

    I mean, they may be able to see another point of view, but they're not stupid. If they let him out, it's still the lives of the many versus the life of one person.

    Entertaining a crazy idea does not necessarily mean that you'll follow through. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you'll come back to the 'safe' side, either.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #8
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I should think that any Introverted type would be cast well as a Mastermind. I can think of many examples that include Ti as well, one of which being Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights. Introverts seem inherently more mysterious and opaque in their motivations to the undiscerning eye.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Just because someone can see that Hannibal Lecter might not exactly be a 'psychopath,' that there might not necessarily be anything wrong with him, doesn't mean that they'd let him out.

    I mean, they may be able to see another point of view, but they're not stupid. If they let him out, it's still the lives of the many versus the life of one person.

    Entertaining a crazy idea does not necessarily mean that you'll follow through. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you'll come back to the 'safe' side, either.
    Precisely.

  10. #10
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    Hmmm, but aren't heroes usually ISFP? ... I don't think ESTJ heroes are that common compared to ISFP and ESFP heroes in fiction.

    What are some famous Ni-dominant villains? (that we're speaking of)

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