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  1. #21
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Yes, I can see what you say about action movies...So will women's literature will have female antagonists who are opposite to ESFJ? Or would it still be based on ESTJ?

    What is our culture's female ideal type?
    The cultural ideal of women has been anima (creep-shrine levels of idealization and projection) feeling. If you watch some really old films, they ALWAYS cue in sappy music when a woman speaks (independant of whether they are casting the woman as an extraverted or introverted feeling type).


    However, in literature, I'm pretty sure the literature culture has a different type (if any)

  2. #22
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    Quizzing my friends, I came up with some "classic" stories- and tried to type the heroes and villains.

    Story With Villains- Heroes:xxxx ::::: Villains:xxxx
    Romeo and Juliet- Romeo:ESFP, Juliet:IsFj ::::: Parents:SJs
    Titanic- Rose:ExFx, Jack:ESFP ::::: Caledon:ESTJ
    Pride and Prejudice- Elizabeth:eNFJ ::::: Mr. Darcy:INTJ, Mrs. Bennet:ESFJ, Lady Catherine:EnTJ/ISTJ(?)
    Star Wars- Luke:IsFP, Han:iSTP, Leia:ExxJ ::::: Darth Vader: ISTJ(?)*, Emperor: INTJ
    Lord of the Rings- Frodo:InFJ, Gandalf:INTj, Aragorn:IsxP(?) ::::: Saruman:INTJ, Sauron:ExxJ(?)
    Hamlet- Hamlet:INtp(?) ::::: Claudius:IxFJ(?)
    Brave New World- John:IN??, Bernard:InTp ::::: Director:ISTJ, Mustapha Mond:ENTP
    Spiderman- Peter:INFP ::::: GreenGoblin:ENTJ, Dr.Otto/Octopus:INTP(?), Sandman:eSFP, EddieBrock:ESTJ

    Without Villains?-
    Fight Club- "Jack":ISTJ, Tyler:ESTP
    Casablanca- Rick:IxTx, Ilsa:INFx(?), Victor:INFP, Claude?)
    Godfather- Michael: INTJ (would he count as his own villain?)

    (Stories I'm not really familiar with enough: Iliad, Alice in Wonderland, Battle Royale, James Bond, Count of Monte Cristo, Batman Begins)

    My only conclusion- Are FPs ever villains? (Maybe of the flighty, borderline personality mom type.) Are NFs ever villains?

    *Actually I think Anakin/Darth Vader is an interesting case- In episodes 1-3, I would think him an ISFP... but in episodes 4-6, I'd think more IxTJ.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    So we are going on the assumption that it matters what the character of the hero is matters more than the setup of the culture in which the hero is geared toward?
    Well, firstly, auteur-driven films reflect more the auteur's own psyche rather than the culture, IMHO. (The same is probably true for a lot of novels as well, but of course publishers will select manuscripts that will have broad appeal.)

    Secondly, within the realm of commercial storytelling, I think genre is very important. Something like Dirty Harry will have a very different positioning of functions-as-archetypes than, say, Sleepless in Seattle.

    But good drama almost demands Beebe's model, I think. A writer can't just make an Ni character a Trickster without (say) the Senex/Witch being an Se-type lest the characters don't act as proper foils in order to create the necessary conflict.

    Does the trickster archetype necessarily match up to the trickster archetype of the 8-function model?
    In my experience, yes, but only in non-focus group-driven works.

  4. #24
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by The WhimWham View Post
    (The same is probably true for a lot of novels as well, but of course publishers will select manuscripts that will have broad appeal.)

    A lot of times they have formula sheets where the character's traits are spelled out specifically and the plots have to follow a set guideline.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    A lot of times they have formula sheets where the character's traits are spelled out specifically and the plots have to follow a set guideline.
    That's pretty depressing but not particularly surprising.

  6. #26
    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    If we take that American society is mainly based on ESTJ type ... then Ni would be in the 'deceiving' role to society and would make an easy target for a villain, or at least a character to be distrusted.
    I guess one way to see if your theory plays out is to check the remaining 6 roles and see if there is a general trend for the ESTJ functions to match those as well.

    ESTJ - Te, Si, Ne, Fi, Ti, Se, Ni, Fe.

    - the heroic role is played by the domTe
    - the supportive role is played by domSi (hero's girlfriend)
    - the relief role -> domNe (comic sidekick)
    - aspirational role -> domFi (moral compass)
    - opposing role -> domTi (scientist holding everyone back by speculating too much)
    - critical role -> domSe (meathead thug characters)
    - deceiving role -> domNi (evil trickster)
    - devilish role -> domFe (mother-in-law character)

    I am kinda bending things to fit the theory though.

  7. #27
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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