Ni users and the "read it, and then do it" methadology

[The Great One]

Errr. Lemme see.


Not sure it's Ni. But I will 'wing' things, as I say. Like making a stab at it. I don't expect perfection, cauze I know by this point, I ain't gonna get it anyway.

So perhaps the reading/studying about it combines with a dose of intuition about how it will all come together, and wah-lah.

Is that really you in the picture?

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Is that really you in the picture?

lol.

Is that really you in your picture?

 

[Little_Sticks]

I'm not sure if this is what you are talking about, but it might be relevant:

There are some people that choose to learn what works by also learning why things don't work, while other people just want to know what works.
The problem though is that the former person is better equipped mentally to avoid mistakes when solving a problem because they are aware of them originally, while the latter type of person will have to make mistakes before they become aware of them.

If your friend is reading books that cater to an understanding of mistakes and how to avoid and solve them, it would make sense that his/her learning curve end up being much lower compared to someone who would rather learn mistakes hands-on. However, you also have to take into account how much time is spent on understanding those books; sometimes it saves time and money to make those mistakes hands-on - a lot of books can be poorly written, poorly organized, and highly cryptic, depending on how much previous knowledge you can relate to them (Jung's writings come to mind).

 

[Usehername]

I could duplicate the model but fail to realize obvious details like playing one key too high or low. I think that the difference in how these two might do this.. both conceptually.. is that Ni creates an internal model and checks back with this, while Ne needs to merge with the object more while duplicating?

Haha, when I was 10 or so I played at a piano festival and ran out of keys because I started in the wrong octave So embarrassing when you're in front of a crowd. I distinctly remember that moment when I was in the middle of the song and realized I was about to run out. It was a moment of pure embarrassment and doom.

My ISFJ teacher could NOT understand how I could play at a pretty high level and still not figure out my body relative to the piano.

 

[Thalassa]

My ISFJ teacher could NOT understand how I could play at a pretty high level and still not figure out my body relative to the piano.

Does that mean that you have less body memory to what "feels right" while playing the piano, or typing on a computer and so forth?

 

[Usehername]

Does that mean that you have less body memory to what "feels right" while playing the piano, or typing on a computer and so forth?

Good question.

I think I just lived in my head when I was younger and it took years of team sports before I got the hang of paying attention to my body. Interestingly, I was a decent athlete, but I think that's like xSxPs who are decent at school--the rules are outlined and it's game on to follow the rules, and it's more of a conscious way to participate.

I made a conscious effort to get better at it in general in my late teens when I learned about the different kinds of intelligences and I don't notice it any more. I'm not one of those people who lives entirely in their heads (anymore).

 

[INTP]

Okay since oaky gave tye INTJ version, i guess i could tell tye INTP one. First its important to understand everything about the subject you are trying to mentally simulate(its about mental simlation first, then taking this simulation onto the real world), you need to see all angles and all factors that even doesent seem important, as they most likely have some underlying reason anyways, which you need to understand in order to realistically simulate it.
Once you are able to succesfully simulate it, for INTPs its the same as actually doing it. Naturally you need to be aware of your physical limitations(which i think im extremely good at)

 

[SilkRoad]

Haha, when I was 10 or so I played at a piano festival and ran out of keys because I started in the wrong octave So embarrassing when you're in front of a crowd. I distinctly remember that moment when I was in the middle of the song and realized I was about to run out. It was a moment of pure embarrassment and doom.

My ISFJ teacher could NOT understand how I could play at a pretty high level and still not figure out my body relative to the piano.

I played piano for many years to quite a high level and the moment of doom was always when I started to think. That would kill it. I'd instantly start to make mistakes. When I didn't think and just let it flow, it...flowed. A wonderful feeling that tended to not last long enough. Which goes for my life now as well, I guess. Brief access to the power of Se.

I'm a very fast touch typist which I think is due to all the piano. Besides piano and typing I'm not that dexterous but muscle/body memory definitely comes into play there. Typing is much simpler, of course, you don't have to access emotion, vary the pressure on the keys, etc. (With piano, I was always good on expressiveness and emotion, not so good on accuracy...)

I can't think of examples to confirm or deny this "read, then do" theory about Ni. If I think of examples I will weigh in again...

 

[Coriolis]

I'm a very fast touch typist which I think is due to all the piano. Besides piano and typing I'm not that dexterous but muscle/body memory definitely comes into play there. Typing is much simpler, of course, you don't have to access emotion, vary the pressure on the keys, etc. (With piano, I was always good on expressiveness and emotion, not so good on accuracy...)

Same here - I'm a fast typist, too, and have played piano for years. I'm reasonably accurate, but I think that is because I am very sensitive to how things sound. I do not play by ear - I either need printed music, or at least need to write it out after hearing - but I will often remember a piece after hearing it only once or twice. Any error will stand out, though, especially once I've payed through a piece correctly.

I used to be terrible at sightreading and have to memorize everything I played. As I got older and did more accompanying, I just had to get better at sightreading, but that seems to have come at the cost of memorizing easily. I will tolerate excusable errors in., say, playing for a choir, but still probably overprepare to avoid them on solo material.

In learning new music, it has always helped to see the big picture of a piece. I always play it through to the end, and can then see how it fits together in sections, how the key and tempo change, which sections are almost identical. This helps me learn it.

 

[Randomnity]

So I've noticed that Se users need to physically do something in order to understand it. However, many Ni users that I have met can do something very strange indeed: Many Ni users that I know can literally watch youtube videos on something or read books on how to do something and then just do it. For instance, I have an INTJ brother who can literally just look at a math problem and not do any paper, nor pencil work and solve the problem perfect everytime. Also, my friend Elfboy has INTJ friend who wasn't that great at wrestling and then just spend a long time reading books on wrestling for a while and then came back with a vengence and became state champion! It's like Ni users learn better from reading and studying how to do things, then actually doing them. Do you Ni users do this as well, and please explain to me how this works?

But an Ni user is also a Se user, and vice versa.

My own preference is to start something new by either following along with instructions or reading a few ways of doing something, mentally compiling them into the best way, and then doing it. Then once you do it, you can make adjustments based on your results, or you can read up on ways other people have found to improve. Or preferably both, as appropriate/desired.

So it's really both methods. using either alone won't get you as far, in my experience.

 

[Nicodemus]

As Oakysage hinted, the creation of mental models of how something works is what happens. There are different ways to do that: everybody can read a book and everybody can try it out, but different people - and types - prefer different ways. Generally speaking, Js want to be prepared when they have to face something new, Ps not so much. Everybody performs better when they are prepared, but not everybody feels the need to be as much as Js. I think the role of Ni is limited to predisposing someone to choose one way of learning over another.

One could talk about this topic in typology terms, but I believe they obscure what is actually happening more than they clarify it.

 

[The Great One]

lol.

Is that really you in your picture?

LMAO, thank God no.

 

[Coriolis]

My own preference is to start something new by either following along with instructions or reading a few ways of doing something, mentally compiling them into the best way, and then doing it. Then once you do it, you can make adjustments based on your results, or you can read up on ways other people have found to improve. Or preferably both, as appropriate/desired.

So it's really both methods. using either alone won't get you as far, in my experience.

Yes. This has been my experience in studying science. As an Ni-dom, I tend to start with background reading and research, so when I get to the hands-on part, I have an idea what the various pieces/parts are and what they do. At the same time, I find I never totally understand the theory until I see it firsthand in the lab, getting to turn the knobs myself and watch the effects. The two definitely reinforce each other in an iterative process.

 

[Virtual ghost]

So I've noticed that Se users need to physically do something in order to understand it. However, many Ni users that I have met can do something very strange indeed: Many Ni users that I know can literally watch youtube videos on something or read books on how to do something and then just do it. For instance, I have an INTJ brother who can literally just look at a math problem and not do any paper, nor pencil work and solve the problem perfect everytime. Also, my friend [MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] has INTJ friend who wasn't that great at wrestling and then just spend a long time reading books on wrestling for a while and then came back with a vengence and became state champion! It's like Ni users learn better from reading and studying how to do things, then actually doing them. Do you Ni users do this as well, and please explain to me how this works?

I could be wrong but this is probably enneagram 5 thing above everything else. (and many Ni doms are e5 or at least w5)