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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    as a way to understand the real world - sure, even if its a fallacy to objectify the functions, the conceptual terminology is still useful to understand personal and social dynamics.
    but i am not so sure it would be viable to communicate about in real life - i don't know anyone who knows about it in israel - and even in canada it was pretty rare, really only my exwife and maybe my aunt-in-law. also it would be difficult to communicate without explaining about the theory, because the terminology doesn't fit the common use of the same words. i would say it might be best to keep it at a basic verbal level, a.k.a. don't say "you have a strong Ne", say "so you like exploring a lot of possibilities and making connections in different directions"...
    As long as you make it sound like a compliment and not a criticism. So it would be more like "you like exploring a lot of possibilities and making connections in different directions... I like that!"
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    It's useful for self awareness and teaching the age old lesson of acceptance of difference, in this case different ways of perceiving and evaluating.

    Once you start seeing it in a black and white sense and you try to place people into catagories that go alongside their type, then you have a big problem.

    Individuals come first, these functions are just guidelines not rules. One ENFP might not be the same as a different ENFP, they have lived different lives in different environments and different experiences. They might share similarities in their way of seeing things, but who they are as people could be vastly different.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    It's useful for self awareness and teaching the age old lesson of acceptance of difference, in this case different ways of perceiving and evaluating.

    Once you start seeing it in a black and white sense and you try to place people into catagories that go alongside their type, then you have a big problem.

    Individuals come first, these functions are just guidelines not rules. One ENFP might not be the same as a different ENFP, they have lived different lives in different environments and different experiences. They might share similarities in their way of seeing things, but who they are as people could be vastly different.
    Well, I'm in total agreement with this. Best summation ever.

    Things with a practical application are great. The question is what the best practical applications of MBTI/JCF actually are.

    The absolute best application is understanding that people are different and that we can accept those differences. The second best is personal growth. Second-point-fifth is helping us frame and develop a rough vocabulary for internal use.

    The worst is diagnosing others individually without a solid, checked, and validated foundation, purely based upon our own rationalizations. That's just Ti/Si nitpicking at its absolute worst. Or Ni tunnelvision. Or a Fe "us versus them" mentality. Or maybe inferior Te that misuses categorization schemes. I can't remember anymore.

  4. #14
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    As long as you make it sound like a compliment and not a criticism. So it would be more like "you like exploring a lot of possibilities and making connections in different directions... I like that!"
    Yes, but only if THEY say that specifically AND if you DO NOT try to explain type theory to them. People -do not- like to be put in a box, nor do they like to feel as though you will always react to them in the same way. If you are trying to figure out an equation for how to interact with people it will FEEL awkward and probably fail. It is better to use typology as an "association cloud" for helping you to feel out that individual or group of people.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  5. #15
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    The point is not that this person is therefore a jealous type or any type, but that this conclusion was created through function interaction. In the situation I'm referring to, the interaction of dominant Si with inferior Ne is a process known as inferior projection in which the jealous person's traits are instead imagined as belonging to a second party in an accusatory way.
    There's no problem in applying this stuff to the world, as long as there really is a connection established between the concept and the reality. What is the connection between projection of general jealousy and the specific dynamic of Si+inferior Ne?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    As long as you make it sound like a compliment and not a criticism. So it would be more like "you like exploring a lot of possibilities and making connections in different directions... I like that!"
    Without the "I like that!" it sounds like a criticism to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    That's just Ti/Si nitpicking at its absolute worst. Or Ni tunnelvision. Or a Fe "us versus them" mentality. Or maybe inferior Te that misuses categorization schemes. I can't remember anymore.
    This pretty much describes the whole problem

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Yes, but only if THEY say that specifically AND if you DO NOT try to explain type theory to them. People -do not- like to be put in a box, nor do they like to feel as though you will always react to them in the same way. If you are trying to figure out an equation for how to interact with people it will FEEL awkward and probably fail. It is better to use typology as an "association cloud" for helping you to feel out that individual or group of people.
    Unfortunately for them, people are being put in abstract boxes all the time by those who are naive to typology. Consider those times at work where I was labeled the one who "forgets," as in something I was supposed to do, especially after my usual work routine was changed for the 12th time. Typology works with this labeling habit in a more innocuous way. But I've read that some people lost their jobs after taking the MBTI at work because their type profile didn't match their work.

    "nor do they like to feel as though you will always react to them in the same way." I don't know what that means, but I usual react the same way and this doesn't bother anybody.

    "If you are trying to figure out an equation for how to interact with people it will FEEL awkward and probably fail." It feels artificial and I'm not into any kind of inauthentic behavior. What bothers me more is those who treat everybody exactly the same way, as if they all fit in the same category.

    'It is better to use typology as an "association cloud" for helping you to feel out that individual or group of people.' I don't know what that is.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    @mal: If you generate stereotypical thoughts like "infjs like giraffes" or whatever people will feel as though you are putting them in a box and not responding to them individually. That will provoke the same feelings in them that are provoked in you when people treat you as being a part of a class of individuals. In other words one stereotype of NFs is that they like art. It is ok to ask someone you suspect is NF if they like art to try and build a bond with them. It is BETTER to ask "what do you like?" It is not ok to say "Oh, you must like art since you are infj " : D

    "I don't know what that means, but I usual react the same way and this doesn't bother anybody."

    "It feels artificial and I'm not into any kind of inauthentic behavior. What bothers me more is those who treat everybody exactly the same way, as if they all fit in the same category."

    ^You don't see those statements as "contradictory"? I don't mean as much in the logical sense as I do in the emotional sense.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    There's no problem in applying this stuff to the world, as long as there really is a connection established between the concept and the reality. What is the connection between projection of general jealousy and the specific dynamic of Si+inferior Ne?
    Jealousy is provoked by the imagining of traits in another that really exist in oneself. Inferior Ne creates a mountain out of a molehill. For a real example, a friend of mine went to the store and returned 45 minutes later, only to be accused of being away too long. Therefore, she must be messing around, right? So she ends up accounting for every minute she was gone: how long it takes to drive there, how long it takes to find a parking space, etc. Her boyfriend is the jealous type because he jealously forces her to explain herself all the time. Her boyfriend is also the one in the relationship who actually has been caught messing around.

    Now with regard to the time issue, read this from

    http://typelogic.com/istj.html
    "Si is oriented toward the world of forms, essences, generics. Time is such a form, a quantifiable essense of exactitude, the standard to which external events are held. For both of the IS_J types, the sense of propriety comes from the clear definition of these internal forms. An apple "should" have certain qualities, against which all apples are evaluated. A "proper" chair has four legs, (and other qualities this poor INTP can only guess). Jung viewed introverted sensing as something of an oxymoron, in that the natural direction of senses is outward toward the object, rather than inward and away from it. One has the sense that Introverted Sensors are drawn more to the measure of the concept of the perceived object than to the experience of that perception."

    It's not just time that the Si is concerned with, of course. But if something or other doesn't "feel" right to the Si (feeling is NOT an emotion in this case, for example the feeling that something is "off"), inferior Ne steps in to provide the reasons why, in a negative way that invokes jealousy when a love relationship is the center of its attention. In doing so, it confuses the object with the subject of its attention by projecting traits held unconsciously by the self onto the significant other.

    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    Without the "I like that!" it sounds like a criticism to you?
    No, but I've been around the block a few times in life and I've learned that people don't like things about them pointed out because it always seems like an implicit criticism. As an INTP I'm one of those types who will make a simple observation and get in trouble for it, even though causing pain wasn't my intention.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #19
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    @mal: If you generate stereotypical thoughts like "infjs like giraffes"
    I don't, so where are you going with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    or whatever people will feel as though you are putting them in a box and not responding to them individually. That will provoke the same feelings in them that are provoked in you when people treat you as being a part of a class of individuals. In other words one stereotype of NFs is that they like art. It is ok to ask someone you suspect is NF if they like art to try and build a bond with them. It is BETTER to ask "what do you like?" It is not ok to say "Oh, you must like art since you are infj " : D
    On this very forum in "The SP Arthouse" itself I've actually tried to knock down the stereotype that the SP is an artist type. It didn't go over very well because other people cling to stereotypes, and so you should be addressing them and not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    "I don't know what that means, but I usual react the same way and this doesn't bother anybody."

    "It feels artificial and I'm not into any kind of inauthentic behavior. What bothers me more is those who treat everybody exactly the same way, as if they all fit in the same category."

    ^You don't see those statements as "contradictory"? I don't mean as much in the logical sense as I do in the emotional sense.
    I don't know what you mean by "react the same way." It's quite common for me to greet the same person differently each time, but we talk about the same things. I don't know where you're going with this.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #20
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Ah wait there reading comprehension fail...im too tired.

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