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Thread: Can Es be quiet? Can Js be messy? Questions of broad MBTI descriptions.

  1. #21
    Senior Member Array htb's Avatar
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    My doubts in typical MBTI tests to determine preferences for Judging and Perceiving were confirmed by the number of tidy and punctual Ps. For instance, I'm certain that most declared ISTJs on this forum are actually organized ISTPs.

    Likewise, I've stated elsewhere on this forum that extraversion seems to manifest itself differently in each type (to say nothing of individual personalities and learned behavior).

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    It's weird because all NTs are aloof, distant, and disengaged, so ENTs are sorta paradoxes, although some seem more stereotypically extroverted than others. In that sense, yes, E's can definitely have strong introverted tendencies if their "conditions" for extroverting aren't met
    That's the key. "Party" questions in tests only seem useful for determining certain types; or perhaps only a few personalities or cultural identities. Do I care for parties? It depends. I don't hobnob, yet wouldn't hesitate to be under a flattering spotlight if events or conversation led me there. Crowds invigorate me; yet I don't like fairs or other long-hour events in which my control over use of time is limited. I enjoy building systems, but increasingly find coordination of specialists (and the delegation of system-building) more rewarding.

  2. #22
    Luctor et emergo Array Ezra's Avatar
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    So what is Extraversion and Introversion in MBTT if not related to loudness/quietness? And if Judgers aren't meticulous in desk-cleaning and Perceivers aren't disorganised, chaotic individuals, then what does Judging and Perceiving refer to?

    So far, I can see this.

    Extraversion: initiate conversation, more comfortable in large groups of people, have shallow yet a wide range of interests
    Introversion: wait for the other person to initiate conversation, less comfortable in large groups of people, have few yet deep interests

    Sensing: less interested in the "big picture" or the way future events might unfold, more interested in details and the "here and now"
    Intuition: more interested in the "big picture" or the way future events may unfold, less interested in details and the "here and now"

    Thinking: prefer objective methods of reasoning, less likely to show much expression (tend to be more enthusiastic if anything e.g. an ENTJ's enthusiasm at a new economic theory)
    Feeling: prefer subjective methods of reasoning, more likely to show a lot of expression (either facially or otherwise)

    Judging: good at followthrough, rigid, planned
    Perceiving: good at initiation/planning, flexible, spontaneous

    Please tell me if any of these definitions are wrong in some way, and please add some more.

    The problem I and most people have with typing ourselves is about relativity. For example, an Extravert (unbeknownst to himself, another or any test/ing method) thinks to himself "I like quietness and solitude; I like to spend time in smaller groups; surely I am an Introvert!" What measure is there to determine that said Extravert is not an Introvert? Well, the MBTI, apparently. However, I don't find this to be satisfactory, because it conflicts with typing by functions, which I am led to believe are actually quite a major part in MBTT (and, if they're not, why not get rid of them?). This is, to my mind, a paradox in MBTT.

    Also, I have a question regarding preference/inherent skills. Some descriptions (even my own) point towards a natural skill, such as that Judgers are "better at" followthrough, and that Perceivers are "better at" being flexible, while other descriptions essentially describe a preference e.g. "Introverts prefer smaller social groups". Why is this?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Array substitute's Avatar
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    I can be quiet if I want to. In fact usually I'm pretty chilled, though not usually silent I'm not 'in your face'. I can be I guess sometimes, but only with people I know.

    Ezra I'm not sure about your definitions of thinking and feeling. My experience is that Feelers, being more in touch with their emotions, are better able to prevent them from showing on the surface. I've known quite a few po-faced IxFx's, and even my ENFP brother can be fairly inscrutable at times. On the other hand, thinkers being less in touch with our feelings are perhaps therefore less able to mask them on the surface. I know that, emotionally, most INTP's are a pretty open book, and I'm usually pretty enthusiastic and passionate. It's a source of misunderstanding for me, exactly the fact that though I take little account of my own emotions, I display them freely, giving a false impression that what I'm saying/thinking/suggesting is due to those emotions.

    edit - I'm just as happy with any size of group, though. From one on one to an entire class or year at college, I'm cool with it. But I'm also okay with being alone, too. I only tend to 'need' people in a conscious sense, when I've got a new idea, thought or plan, and then I want to discuss it with someone. But if the only person available is a grouchy bastard that'll just pour cold water on everything, I'd rather just plot it out alone. Most of the time when I go exploring, I prefer to be alone. Other people just hold me back or I end up having to 'babysit' them, sorta, and then I'm not as free to just absorb everything and go on full observation/interaction mode with my new surroundings. It's only other EP's or possibly INFP's, that I find enhance an exploration trip. Anyone else spoils it for me.
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  4. #24
    Don't Judge Me! Array Haphazard's Avatar
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    Ezra, I've always found it easier to split up the whole thing into the functions rather than just the dichotomies. In that case, introversion/extroversion are more to do with the leading function and perceiving/judgement decides the introversion/extroversion of irrational functions.

    'ENTP' can be seen as pretty introverted because of the first two functions -- Ne and Ti. Even though the first function is extraverted, Ne still has to do with the internalization of information, they can be seen as pretty introverted, especially when paired with Ti.

    Judgers have introverted irrational functions while sensors have extroverted irrational functions. This means that perception of the world for judgers is seen through more of an internal lens than perceivers, which makes decision-making a lot easier. A perceiver has introverted rational functions, which don't go towards implementation so much as they do for judgers but rather go for understanding. Judgers are externalizing an internal standard (which can be seen as a very 'git-er-done' attitude) while perceivers are internalizing and external standard (which involves less action and more learning, making them seem 'lazy'.) I think you got confused because usually judgers are the planners, not the perceivers.

    Also, I've heard the difference between extroversion and introversion explained in a way that doesn't involve people, which has to do with the leading function. Introverts start out as those who don't want real-world consequences for enacting their thoughts and beliefs and whatever. An extrovert starts out as one who understands and plays to the consequences of the outside world but is too willing to compromise and has no internal 'guiding light.' As a person matures, they're naturally going to even out, but still, they'll always have a preference between one or the other. When the 'auxillary' function develops to help out the 'dominant' function is when this happens.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Also, I have a question regarding preference/inherent skills. Some descriptions (even my own) point towards a natural skill, such as that Judgers are "better at" followthrough, and that Perceivers are "better at" being flexible, while other descriptions essentially describe a preference e.g. "Introverts prefer smaller social groups". Why is this?
    Well it depends on semantics here. What work are you to define on what to follow through? If you choose engineering, than the ENTPs follow through on that. A successful MIS career($100,000+)? Perhaps the INTP.

    Prefering smaller groups is not a direct causation from introversion. Many introverts like the ISFJs and ISTJs prefer large groups. Also, don't forget to factor in the nurture part. Generally, most description on MBTI are detailed oriented and not analytically oriented. They don't go indept.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Array "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    When I first heard about MBTI, less than nine months ago, I started by associating J types as tidy and P types as messy, just as a way of beginning an understanding. And though I've always known what an Introvert is, as I always knew I was one, I neglected to detail Extraverts beyond featureless adjectives like, loud.

    Also I'd like to know if TJs are more likely than FJs to keep an area in order, just to see if the tidy J myth isn't just about Te.

    Discussion on any other MBTI stereotypes is also welcome.
    Actually Se types can be some neat freaks, because they like aesthetic beauty (SFP) and functional neatness (STP). Simple dichotomies means that Js prefer structure and Ps need room for flexibility. And yes ET types in general can be quiet whereas IF types can be quite chatty. In particularly ESTPs prefer action to words and INFJs can be mistyped as extraverts as can all of the "Chart the Course" types. As an ISTP, people who do not know me well consider me lively.

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    Senior Member Array wedekit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Actually Se types can be some neat freaks, because they like aesthetic beauty (SFP) and functional neatness (STP). Simple dichotomies means that Js prefer structure and Ps need room for flexibility. And yes ET types in general can be quiet whereas IF types can be quite chatty. In particularly ESTPs prefer action to words and INFJs can be mistyped as extraverts as can all of the "Chart the Course" types. As an ISTP, people who do not know me well consider me lively.
    Yes! I've totally noticed this in one of my Co-RA's. He displays a lot of traits and characteristics of an ESTP, so I'm going under the assumption that he is. Basically, I notice that he goes through a behavior shift when we work office hours with each other. Since he can't freely get up and move around all the time like he normally does, he always starts cleaning any kind of mess the previous shifts have made like crazy. I always just attributed it to him not being able to sit still for long, but "functional neatness" sounds spiffier.

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  8. #28
    Order Now! Array pure_mercury's Avatar
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    I am a J, and my room is pretty messy. It's not dirty, though, and I never eat in it. I also know where everything is, even though it may look like a cyclone hit it.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #29
    Rats off to ya! Array Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    I'd rather tread carefully here. They're the least people oriented. Extroversion in and of itself has nothing to do with people. Socializing is only one product of extroversion, and is not one that's inherently present. I think a lot of INTPs probably type themselves incorrectly thinking that their lack of social activity makes them an introvert. Rather, it's that his extroversion doesn't make him social.
    Fair enough, so what would be the best criteria to say if someone is an extravert or not? What's defines an extravert?
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  10. #30
    Rats off to ya! Array Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Actually Se types can be some neat freaks, because they like aesthetic beauty (SFP) and functional neatness (STP).
    While writing the OP I was reminded of an ISTP friend who keeps his work area impeccable.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

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