My doubts in typical MBTI tests to determine preferences for Judging and Perceiving were confirmed by the number of tidy and punctual Ps. For instance, I'm certain that most declared ISTJs on this forum are actually organized ISTPs.
Likewise, I've stated elsewhere on this forum that extraversion seems to manifest itself differently in each type (to say nothing of individual personalities and learned behavior).
05-03-2008, 08:57 PM #21
05-04-2008, 07:07 AM #22
So what is Extraversion and Introversion in MBTT if not related to loudness/quietness? And if Judgers aren't meticulous in desk-cleaning and Perceivers aren't disorganised, chaotic individuals, then what does Judging and Perceiving refer to?
So far, I can see this.
Extraversion: initiate conversation, more comfortable in large groups of people, have shallow yet a wide range of interests
Introversion: wait for the other person to initiate conversation, less comfortable in large groups of people, have few yet deep interests
Sensing: less interested in the "big picture" or the way future events might unfold, more interested in details and the "here and now"
Intuition: more interested in the "big picture" or the way future events may unfold, less interested in details and the "here and now"
Thinking: prefer objective methods of reasoning, less likely to show much expression (tend to be more enthusiastic if anything e.g. an ENTJ's enthusiasm at a new economic theory)
Feeling: prefer subjective methods of reasoning, more likely to show a lot of expression (either facially or otherwise)
Judging: good at followthrough, rigid, planned
Perceiving: good at initiation/planning, flexible, spontaneous
Please tell me if any of these definitions are wrong in some way, and please add some more.
The problem I and most people have with typing ourselves is about relativity. For example, an Extravert (unbeknownst to himself, another or any test/ing method) thinks to himself "I like quietness and solitude; I like to spend time in smaller groups; surely I am an Introvert!" What measure is there to determine that said Extravert is not an Introvert? Well, the MBTI, apparently. However, I don't find this to be satisfactory, because it conflicts with typing by functions, which I am led to believe are actually quite a major part in MBTT (and, if they're not, why not get rid of them?). This is, to my mind, a paradox in MBTT.
Also, I have a question regarding preference/inherent skills. Some descriptions (even my own) point towards a natural skill, such as that Judgers are "better at" followthrough, and that Perceivers are "better at" being flexible, while other descriptions essentially describe a preference e.g. "Introverts prefer smaller social groups". Why is this?
05-04-2008, 07:31 AM #23
I can be quiet if I want to. In fact usually I'm pretty chilled, though not usually silent I'm not 'in your face'. I can be I guess sometimes, but only with people I know.
Ezra I'm not sure about your definitions of thinking and feeling. My experience is that Feelers, being more in touch with their emotions, are better able to prevent them from showing on the surface. I've known quite a few po-faced IxFx's, and even my ENFP brother can be fairly inscrutable at times. On the other hand, thinkers being less in touch with our feelings are perhaps therefore less able to mask them on the surface. I know that, emotionally, most INTP's are a pretty open book, and I'm usually pretty enthusiastic and passionate. It's a source of misunderstanding for me, exactly the fact that though I take little account of my own emotions, I display them freely, giving a false impression that what I'm saying/thinking/suggesting is due to those emotions.
edit - I'm just as happy with any size of group, though. From one on one to an entire class or year at college, I'm cool with it. But I'm also okay with being alone, too. I only tend to 'need' people in a conscious sense, when I've got a new idea, thought or plan, and then I want to discuss it with someone. But if the only person available is a grouchy bastard that'll just pour cold water on everything, I'd rather just plot it out alone. Most of the time when I go exploring, I prefer to be alone. Other people just hold me back or I end up having to 'babysit' them, sorta, and then I'm not as free to just absorb everything and go on full observation/interaction mode with my new surroundings. It's only other EP's or possibly INFP's, that I find enhance an exploration trip. Anyone else spoils it for me.Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!
"When it all comes down to dust
I will kill you if I must
I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen
05-04-2008, 07:57 AM #24
Ezra, I've always found it easier to split up the whole thing into the functions rather than just the dichotomies. In that case, introversion/extroversion are more to do with the leading function and perceiving/judgement decides the introversion/extroversion of irrational functions.
'ENTP' can be seen as pretty introverted because of the first two functions -- Ne and Ti. Even though the first function is extraverted, Ne still has to do with the internalization of information, they can be seen as pretty introverted, especially when paired with Ti.
Judgers have introverted irrational functions while sensors have extroverted irrational functions. This means that perception of the world for judgers is seen through more of an internal lens than perceivers, which makes decision-making a lot easier. A perceiver has introverted rational functions, which don't go towards implementation so much as they do for judgers but rather go for understanding. Judgers are externalizing an internal standard (which can be seen as a very 'git-er-done' attitude) while perceivers are internalizing and external standard (which involves less action and more learning, making them seem 'lazy'.) I think you got confused because usually judgers are the planners, not the perceivers.
Also, I've heard the difference between extroversion and introversion explained in a way that doesn't involve people, which has to do with the leading function. Introverts start out as those who don't want real-world consequences for enacting their thoughts and beliefs and whatever. An extrovert starts out as one who understands and plays to the consequences of the outside world but is too willing to compromise and has no internal 'guiding light.' As a person matures, they're naturally going to even out, but still, they'll always have a preference between one or the other. When the 'auxillary' function develops to help out the 'dominant' function is when this happens.-Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge
05-04-2008, 08:24 AM #25
Prefering smaller groups is not a direct causation from introversion. Many introverts like the ISFJs and ISTJs prefer large groups. Also, don't forget to factor in the nurture part. Generally, most description on MBTI are detailed oriented and not analytically oriented. They don't go indept.
05-04-2008, 09:40 AM #26
05-04-2008, 02:11 PM #27[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Enneagram 4w5 social
05-04-2008, 03:37 PM #28
I am a J, and my room is pretty messy. It's not dirty, though, and I never eat in it. I also know where everything is, even though it may look like a cyclone hit it.Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"
05-05-2008, 12:23 AM #29
05-05-2008, 12:25 AM #30
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