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  1. #11
    Senior Member nemo's Avatar
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    Also, for introversion vs. extroversion --

    I think there's something to the whole cortical arousal thing.

    I can go to a party, for instance, talk to a bunch of people, declare them all to be useless zombies who can't carry a stimulating conversation to save their lives, and spend the rest of the night only interacting with a few of the less intolerable ones. But when I get home, do I feel "drained"? Hardly ever. Bored out of my freaking mind? Yes.
    You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. - Jack London

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The difference, yes, is some need for closure, or, rather, 'settling.' A J type is more likely to accept that they can 'settle' for something once it's good enough whereas a P type can't, which makes them appear indecisive. J types usually decide that implementation is what's important and P types usually decide that understanding is what's important. For example, if we look at a lot of science models, we have things that a J (well, more precisely, one with strong Te) can accept for all intents and purposes if it produces accurate results while a P (well, one with strong Ti) can't and really wants to learn the 'truth' of a situation.
    Put slightly another way, I had thought that it was more important for J's to take action on something (even if it might be wrong), while for P's it was more important to be accurate/right. The priorities are just different. So the J will go for closure and just change course as they go, if necessary; P's sort of meander about exploring everything and saving their commitment until they're more sure... if they ever get there.

    It plays out pretty clearly on the job. It is hard for me to move tasks to completion, especially if the information doesn't seem complete. I'd rather explain how something works, to my best knowledge, and let others make any decisions based on it; the J's are much happier to move the schedule along, even they don't understand what they're dealing with completely.

    But my INTJ boss's office is just as messy as my cube. And he used to drive me batty, hovering over me in order to just have a task complete ("is it done? Can you check it now, again?")... whereas I didn't feel like I could close something off yet reasonably, because the information just was not there. True, as a manager, he has higher-ups leaning on him for a timeline, but we still differ in work method. I would rather have the work "right" than have it done at all.

    J's definitely can be messy, if they're focused elsewhere. It doesn't mean they don't know where things are (although SJs seem to like their spaces neater or need more physical org). And I've seen neat P's, if they take pleasure in it. Even with appearance, some P's can be snazzy dressers and look put together... because they enjoy it. Culture, upbringing, specific interests, and context all do play a part.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Member Electric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    Also, for introversion vs. extroversion --

    I think there's something to the whole cortical arousal thing.

    I can go to a party, for instance, talk to a bunch of people, declare them all to be useless zombies who can't carry a stimulating conversation to save their lives, and spend the rest of the night only interacting with a few of the less intolerable ones. But when I get home, do I feel "drained"? Hardly ever. Bored out of my freaking mind? Yes.
    interesting. I feel quite drained if I have to pay attention to conversations. It's just way too over taxing and different for my thoughts to process. I can manage myself through socializing with multitudes of strangers in a social of thousands of people stuck in a medium size event center, but I won't ever be energized. Instead, I would be energize when I can work alone on a project that doesn't include direct contact with strangers.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    When you start learning about any topic, sometimes it's easier to search for stereotypes and easy labels on the subject first, then over time layer the foundation with detail while chipping off the misconceptions.

    When I first heard about MBTI, less than nine months ago, I started by associating J types as tidy and P types as messy, just as a way of beginning an understanding. And though I've always known what an Introvert is, as I always knew I was one, I neglected to detail Extraverts beyond featureless adjectives like, loud.

    But now I'm at that healthy age when a boy starts asking questions. I want to know now, how broadly these terms can be taken, as I find people I want to type as Extraverts who can spend large parts of the day in silence and people I want to type as Judgment-Extraverters (if that's a term) who can keep their flats in disgusting disarray. I especially want to know from INTJs about this one.

    Also I'd like to know if TJs are more likely than FJs to keep an area in order, just to see if the tidy J myth isn't just about Te.

    Discussion on any other MBTI stereotypes is also welcome.
    Well. My brother (ESTP) spends a good chunk of his day locked up in his room quiet as a mouse and/or drowned in playing his piano. Usually it's after he's been to school or someone's house for most of the day. My mother (ESFJ) spends her quiet hours reading or watching TV. My conclusion is simply that everyone needs their alone, "me" time.

    As for tidiness: *looks around her flat and notices there are few places where the surfaces of things can be seen* Clearest place is the kitchen really. I wouldn't call it a disgusting disarray...it only gets to the point of being horrible when everyone is busy with exams. I know that there are always specific areas that will be as spotless as possible, because if they aren't, I go insane. I have no problem with stuff being everywhere....just so long as I'm not stepping on it or bumping into it all the time.

  5. #15
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Electric:

    That's 'cause you're using a function you're not comfortable with when you do converse.

    Ne is better than Te at finding something interesting in even the most idiotic of drivel. It can be good but it can be bad too. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd bet you try not to blast anyone in person for their foolishness, which demands that you back your Thinking off.

    I find I'm a lot like nemo. I don't become exhausted from conversing with idiots. I don't have a great deal of hesitancy raking them over the coals if they're really persistent though...

    Don't know about you or nemo in that regard.

    I'd also like to add that I identify with nemo in that to most, I probably appear as an introvert. They probably won't call me that, but they'll notice I keep mostly to myself. I'm pretty selective with friends too, so says my INTJ friend.

    It's true, I'm not extremely outgoing. I've been told I miss a lot of major social cues (like shaking hands or expressing sorrow), which I sort of disagree with, but of course I can't think that I catch them all.
    we fukin won boys

  6. #16
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I tend to find things interesting that other people find to be boring, so I rarely get bored while talking to people- I tend to ask a lot of questions when talking just because I'm curious

    I did go through a time period of not talking much- a lot of things had gone wrong and I became more of an introvert. My normal state is probably somewhat loud though- I'll admit that I like to talk My friends characterize me somewhat like a big dog- I'm happy to wander up to a new person and sniff them and such, but it's not necissarily a friendly sniffing- it's merely a curious sniffing. I'm rarely characterized as warm in real life because I don't make emotional connections and I tend to keep people at an arms length.

    As for Js and messiness? My sis is an ENFJ and she'll go through organization kicks occasionally and her home will become absolutley amazing, then she'll get busy and just want to come home from work and crash on the couch with her man and the house will get messy again. It goes in cycles (my ISFJ mother does the same thing somewhat).
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #17
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    That's why ENPs can especially appear like such introverts. If a situation is ordinary and mundane, they often won't extrovert at all. On the other hand, if something new and interesting pops up, they'll bounce all over the place. And the new-and-interesting situations that activate Ne aren't necessarily social ones.

    ...

    In that sense, yes, E's can definitely have strong introverted tendencies if their "conditions" for extroverting aren't met.
    Ah yes, I get this. Which explains some of my confusion with my E/I score!

    When speaking to strangers in large group conversations, I don't extravert very much at all. I find I respond very much on an individual level, which is difficult to do when I can't really get a handle on the individuals themselves. When speaking one-on-one I can almost always find a point of conversational interest, and be quite engaged and involved. (Unless, of course, I'm deliberately trying not to encourage! )

    For me, a personal and passionate conversation can be the most energising and engaging thing I could possibly do. But on the other hand, impersonal group chatter (ST-type?) has me like a mouse in the corner, watching but seemingly never saying a thing.
    ANFP:
    Extraversion (52%) ---- Introversion (48%)
    Sensing (26%) ---- iNtuition (74%)
    Thinking (16%) ---- Feeling (84%)
    Judging (5%) ---- Perceiving (95%)

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  8. #18
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    How good is he at leading people? How many people can he talk to at a time? Does he usually blurt out things, or does he have a stop-and-start manner of speech (that I've noticed in most INTs)? ENTPs are master bullshitters and don't lead by command, but they usually acquire a lot of followers if they can find enough people to appreciate their NT-ness.
    This does sound a little like him. I also notice that when has an idea he tries it out to see if it would work or fail, whereas I'm more likely to critique an idea before trying it. Could these be examples of Ne before Ti and Ti before Ne?

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    And Ne itself is interesting because it's primarily activated by the possibilities present in a situation, not the situation itself.

    That's why ENPs can especially appear like such introverts.
    This reminds me of something BlueWing once told me, that INTPs can be the introverted type as their extraversion is in Ne, which does involve the internalizing of a situation to turn them into ideas and their Ti makes them more removed from others than the Fi of INFPs. Can it then follow that ENTPs could be seen as the most intoverted extravert?

    Thanks to the ENPs who posted here, I feel more confident of typing my friend an ENTP as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    J's definitely can be messy, if they're focused elsewhere. It doesn't mean they don't know where things are (although SJs seem to like their spaces neater or need more physical org). And I've seen neat P's, if they take pleasure in it.
    My question of messy Js comes from my attempt to type another friend of mine that I don't particularly like that much. At first glance he is definitely an INTX, and the way he likes to tell people what to think rather than discuss what they think makes me want to type him INTJ. He's a buddhist and tries to play the part of the sincere and nice person, but he alienates everybody he meets. He's worked two full time jobs in his life, both of which he was fired from and definitely for his own fault, and both of which he later sued. I doubt there's many sincere buddhists in the world who sue people.

    He's an aggravating person to even talk to, and most people end up in arguments with him. He is a shocking to person to live with, his room always had old dinner plates with month old food on them and I would often find open peanut butter jars on the counter still with a knife in them. The one time he promised to do the dishes, because a friend of his was coming over, he actually ended up moving all the dirty dishes into his room instead just so they couldn't be seen. There is still mould on the ceiling of the room he moved out from. A more physically repulsive person I have not met, and I'm a P!

    Mess I have no problem with, but anything dirty and filthy just offends my senses, but this guy has no problem with it. My tertiary Si couldn't put up with him, and in fact his chilidish Fi is another reason I want to type him an INTJ. I know to say somebody is more subjective in their opinions than yourself is an subjective statement to make, but I'm confident in saying it. If anyone even vaguely mocks buddhism or Asian countries he is sent into an intellectual rage, but he has no problem running the shit out of Christianity and America.

    He is somehow oblivious to how hateworthy he is. A discussion we had once on the character of Kramer from Seinfeld makes me laugh. We both agreed that if Kramer ever knew just how annoying he was to Jerry he would try to stop being so, but there is no way he could ever know how annoying he truly is. It made me laugh that he agreed with this because I feel the exact same way about him.

    Rant over, people's thoughts? INTJ? As objective as I try to be, I really, really don't want him to be an INTP.
    Why do we always come here?

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  9. #19
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    This reminds me of something BlueWing once told me, that INTPs can be the introverted type as their extraversion is in Ne, which does involve the internalizing of a situation to turn them into ideas and their Ti makes them more removed from others than the Fi of INFPs. Can it then follow that ENTPs could be seen as the most intoverted extravert?
    I'd rather tread carefully here. They're the least people oriented. Extroversion in and of itself has nothing to do with people. Socializing is only one product of extroversion, and is not one that's inherently present. I think a lot of INTPs probably type themselves incorrectly thinking that their lack of social activity makes them an introvert. Rather, it's that his extroversion doesn't make him social.
    we fukin won boys

  10. #20
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    This does sound a little like him. I also notice that when has an idea he tries it out to see if it would work or fail, whereas I'm more likely to critique an idea before trying it. Could these be examples of Ne before Ti and Ti before Ne?
    Perhaps. I've heard ENTP considered the most 'artisan' of the NTs, as in they can jump into the chaos without thinking too much and still handle themselves fine.
    My question of messy Js comes from my attempt to type another friend of mine that I don't particularly like that much. At first glance he is definitely an INTX, and the way he likes to tell people what to think rather than discuss what they think makes me want to type him INTJ. He's a buddhist and tries to play the part of the sincere and nice person, but he alienates everybody he meets. He's worked two full time jobs in his life, both of which he was fired from and definitely for his own fault, and both of which he later sued. I doubt there's many sincere buddhists in the world who sue people.

    He's an aggravating person to even talk to, and most people end up in arguments with him. He is a shocking to person to live with, his room always had old dinner plates with month old food on them and I would often find open peanut butter jars on the counter still with a knife in them. The one time he promised to do the dishes, because a friend of his was coming over, he actually ended up moving all the dirty dishes into his room instead just so they couldn't be seen. There is still mould on the ceiling of the room he moved out from. A more physically repulsive person I have not met, and I'm a P!

    Mess I have no problem with, but anything dirty and filthy just offends my senses, but this guy has no problem with it. My tertiary Si couldn't put up with him, and in fact his chilidish Fi is another reason I want to type him an INTJ. I know to say somebody is more subjective in their opinions than yourself is an subjective statement to make, but I'm confident in saying it. If anyone even vaguely mocks buddhism or Asian countries he is sent into an intellectual rage, but he has no problem running the shit out of Christianity and America.

    He is somehow oblivious to how hateworthy he is. A discussion we had once on the character of Kramer from Seinfeld makes me laugh. We both agreed that if Kramer ever knew just how annoying he was to Jerry he would try to stop being so, but there is no way he could ever know how annoying he truly is. It made me laugh that he agreed with this because I feel the exact same way about him.

    Rant over, people's thoughts? INTJ? As objective as I try to be, I really, really don't want him to be an INTP.
    Weeeelll, I see a lot of my father in this guy, and my father is one that I have tentatively typed INTP (sorry about that.) Although, I am starting to doubt that and starting to think INTJ -- it would support my theory that INTJs have a tendency to hate each other in close quarters.

    The fact about 'oblivious to how hateworthy he is, etc.' is common to INTxs, unfortunately. INTs have the tendency to be unaware of appear to others.

    I'm not sure how relevant it is, but most INTJs I've heard usually keep their mess 'sanitary' as in nothing that could possibly mold or do anything disgusting like how you describe. Then again, as Jung said, everyone is the exception to the rule.

    I definitely see in my father what you say about your friend and Buddhism, only my father does it with other ideologies. I don't know if this is exactly tertiary Fi... In my understanding, the way tertiary Fi works will usually hurt the INTJ more than it ever hurts anybody else. It's intensely personal, and will lead an INTJ to do things to try to convince themselves that they are 'good'. An INTJ would likely not be so noisy about these things that they have to do in order to convince themselves that they're not terrible people, but they may become vocal about it when their integrity is breached. Tertiary Fi tends to lead to things like doing meaningless 'honorable' things like the Captain going down with the ship, even if it would mean that he'd just die and his life would be a waste. Well, that action is most associated with ISTJs, but it's the same function.

    Also, in the beginning... the fact that he likes to 'tell people what to think' rather than tell them 'what they think'... doesn't seem very INTJ at all. An INTJ is more likely to be very precise as to what they think and tell it to somebody else it in a very precise manner, and not really care what the other person does with it unless the INTJ has a personal stake in it. To a lot of people this appears as 'telling people what to think' because they're so confident in their statements when the default mode of INTJ thinking is to place 'in my opinion' at the end of everyone's statements and it can be hard to remember that other people don't do the same.

    Some of this guy's actions almost sound ENTJ. The way he acts with emotional things almost sound inferior Fi and then 8th function Fe. Remember, extroversion doesn't necessarily mean gregariousness or social finesse -- it simply means that they need external stimulation and have focus of things outside of themselves to create their points of view.

    I don't know. Whatever type he is doesn't change the fact that he's insufferable. I hope you don't have to put up with him that much longer, for your sake.

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