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  1. #71
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    This... Is not looking too promising.

  2. #72
    Member Auburn's Avatar
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    @cascadeco - Introversion and Extroversion, as commonly understood, are actually more like states of being; such as depressed or happy. The same is true for J and P. They are symptom-based dichotomies, not the root cause. Having an outer-focused function as your lead function doesn't necessarily mean you'll have confidence in the real world. Such things are determined by many other factors.

    I don't necessarily think you are an extrovert by the known definition of the word. But I wonder, what is your objection to the possession of Ne+Fi as cognitive functions?

    This... Is not looking too promising.
    It was worth a shot..
    But I knew I probably wouldn't get a good reception from this.

    Ah well. I shall hence be labeled a crazy left-field theorist..
    I was totally prepared for it. :p

  3. #73
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auburn View Post
    But I wonder, what is your objection to the possession of Ne+Fi as cognitive functions?
    My 'objection' is simply that I am not Ne-dom, and it makes no sense to me based on literature I've read, Ne-doms I know, and Ne-ers on this forum. We're like apples to oranges. This isn't out of some sense of my wanting to hold on tight to my current typing, it's about my objectively not seeing Ne-dom as a remote possibility. And, I think if I actually were an ENFP, the entire forum should shut down immediately and mbti should henceforth be considered utterly useless! (as opposed to only partially useless ) I really don't know what else to say.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #74
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auburn View Post
    @Thread

    I firstly want to say I fully understand the skepticism being presented. I would react the same way too if some random person walked in and started telling me who I was. I don't mean to say you don't know who you are. But who we see ourselves as, and how it parallels to a model, may not be properly fit. This may be due to err in self-evaluation or simply due to error in the model itself. In this case, the model has a lot of the fault.
    some of us have used plenty of outside sources as well... people who actually get to observe our behavior in every day life and actually know us as PEOPLE as opposed to having just watched a brief video of us on the internet A lot of the people that you are arguing with have been here for quite a while and are rather familiar with personality theory... I wouldn't be surprised if they had taken tabs on those who know them in real life as well in most cases and are therefore getting more varied and external views...

    The MBTI spends so much time emphasizing the dichotomy of introversion and extroversion in particular. The profiles often start out making that differentiation; using vague phrases such as whether one likes to be around people, or by oneself. The reality is that such descriptions are only marginally (negligibly) related to the orientation of your dominant function.

    And naturally, the type of individuals who have an interest in self-evaluation and psychoanalysis are more likely to identify themselves with the Introverted description. It's not like introverts are the only ones who self-reflect, but the mbti gives that impression.
    I am aware that there is a difference between being cognitively introverted and behaviorally introverted... I am rather highly cognitively introverted, being completely unable to relate to myself as a person without the benefit of knowing what my place is, what I'm good at and where I'm headed... I'm not a me, I'm a person. I am, however, not a social butterfly by any means- I LOVE to spend time alone and in the quiet and I HATE chaos and crowds... I know that I'm an extrovert though

    The phenomenon of typological internet forums is an interesting one. There are a lot of psychological factors at work in how and why they come about and are sustained. Primarily, people who find an interest in typology do so out of a desire to understand their own identity.
    not me... I prefer to understand how people work and where I fit into the bigger picture... much more interesting... I suck at introspection!

    Another factor that may be at work is an Individuality Complex. This is an immature response but it is real. Many people find comfort in associating with a certain type because it places them in a group that is allegedly more "deep" or "introspective" - things that the psyche is convinced validate one's place in relation to the "not-deep" and "non-introspective" people out there. Certain profile are written more elegantly, mystically and magically than others - and everyone wants to be special, after all, right? It feels good to be part of the %1.
    well, yeah... that's a basic flaw in all descriptions... not everyone falls into that category though, so no need to apply the rule to everyone!

    There is another dynamic often at work involving Projection. Where the tendency is to type those in our circle of acquaintances who we don't like, as the types we don't associate with. "Oh, she's such a blonde, she must be an ESFP". This type of prejudice is something most won't admit to, but which does, at least unconsciously, penetrate the minds of all who are a part of this psychology. This happens naturally; by definition, in order for us to identify with something, we have to not identify with something else. But the result is often prejudice which is not much better than racism:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqT1LvM6uO8

    It is in the nature of humanity to want to include and exclude; to be included and to not have those who one dislikes in the same circle. All these and so many other human dynamics saturate every part of human life, including typology forums. Given all these subjectivities and susceptibilities we carry, it would be bad logic to assume that most people are capable of properly typing themselves. We are often the ones who are most biased about our own self perception.
    yes, it's a fucktarded stereotype that people have, but that's not why I'm objecting to you calling me an ESFP... I know for certain, and could get you plenty of people to back me up on this, that I use so little Fi that it barely registers as existing at all... you need to know more of the bigger picture before passing judgement with such a sense of certainty

    And I say this because I'm familiar with it happen within myself and to many other people around me. Unless a person is consciously making an effort to deconstruct the prejudices that form in the mind, they will remain there. In endeavoring on this project, I had to break down a lot of my own prejudices and realize just how competent (more competent than I) some types of people are at things like logic.

    I am Ti(Ne) - which is considered to be among the most "brilliant thinkers" or whathaveyou. But I've been floored by the logic of some other types, both in person and in celebrities. It demonstrates just how false the profile stereotypes are, and who you can be as a person is incredibly vast, given the same cognitive configuration.
    I KNOW how to find the strengths in others, I do that for a good part of my job and I'm rather good at my job- and the fact that every different person has their own brand of logic and intelligence is made perfectly clear by training people and watching them work... I have all types of people on my team who I have trained and developed and you have to look at each person as an entirely different case... a new puzzle to solve... and they all have their own strengths which are downright astounding if given an opportunity to do their own thing... it'd be stupid to write someone off over a few letters...

    When I say to you guys that you are a certain type, it may seem that I am challenging your identity because you know who you are - and you know you're not what you know about the profile of the type I'm saying you are. But what I am identifying is your fundamental cognitive rhythm.
    which I'm saying that you just don't know because you don't really KNOW us... you've never seen me being myself, you've only seen me making a video for an internet forum, which is kind of fake and staged in a way... you haven't seen me interact, or work, or solve a puzzle... you're seeing the tip of an iceberg and telling us the shape of it and being mad when you don't really get it... why are you mad that your logic failed?

    If you choose to stay confined within the comfort of a profile that properly describes your habits and interests - but which misunderstands your psyche, it will be of no use to you, but actually a hindrance to your full potential. It will only ever seem accurate to you as long as you have those habits and interests, or are in that particular mental or emotional phase. It will not give you any consistent insight into you or how to utilize the mind you have effectively.
    and now you pose yourself as some sort of savior sent to break us out of our narrow minded, stereotype ridden, kiersey based visions of typology without even getting to know a thing about those that you are accusing of being narrow minded... which is actually pretty narrow minded of you... most of the people who you are arguing with have been those who have been more of proponents of a more open minded view of things and have actually spoken against a lot of the stereotyping that goes on as far as what behaviors are apparently attached to what type! why should these same people be the type who would immediately fall in line behind someone else who wants to stereotype in a different way?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #75
    Member Auburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    My 'objection' is simply that I am not Ne-dom, and it makes no sense to me based on literature I've read, Ne-doms I know, and Ne-ers on this forum. We're like apples to oranges. This isn't out of some sense of my wanting to hold on tight to my current typing, it's about my objectively not seeing Ne-dom as a remote possibility. And, I think if I actually were an ENFP, the entire forum should shut down immediately and mbti should henceforth be considered utterly useless! (as opposed to only partially useless ) I really don't know what else to say.
    Well, saying you absolutely cannot be Ne because of other Ne users you may know is Projection. :p And mbti profiles are really bad at the way they describe the types. But I still suspect you're Ne(Fi). Here's a rough cue breakdown as to why...

    link omitted..

    0:00 - Explorer Alert Eyes
    0:02 - Fi Unaware/Awkward Smile
    0:06 - Deflection
    0:10 - Ne Perk Up
    0:13 - Unaware Smile
    0:14 - Explorer Alert Eyes
    0:15 - Deflection & Si-check
    0:18 - Ne Reconnect
    0:18 - Te Voice
    0:20 - Compass (Fi) Check
    0:21 - Te Voice
    0:22 - Te Exacting Nod
    0:23 - Deflection & Si-check
    0:26 - Compass (Fi) Check
    0:28 - Ne Perk Up
    0:30 - Deflection & Si-check
    0:33 - Te Head Tilt
    0:34 - Si-check
    0:36 - Ne Reconnect
    0:36 - Te Voice
    0:37 - Compass (Fi) Check
    0:42 - Deflection, Ne Brainstorming
    0:46 - Te Cooling Voice
    0:51 - Alert Eyes
    0:52 - Compass (Fi) Check
    0:54 - Ne Reconnect
    0:54 - Deflecting Si-check
    0:55 - Ne Reconnect
    1:01 - Ne Perk Up
    1:05 - Compass (Fi) Check
    1:06 - Inner Warming (smile)
    1:08 - Ne Reconnect
    1:11 - Deflection Si check
    1:12 - Ne Reconnect
    1:13 - Fi Unaware Smile
    1:13 - Fi Compass Check
    1:15 - Ne Alert Eyes
    1:16 - Fi Unaware/Awkward Smile
    1:16 - Fi Compass Check
    1:20 - Ne Perk Up
    1:21 - Si Searching Eyes
    1:21 - Fi Unaware Mouth
    1:25 - Ne Alert Eyes
    1:25 - Ne Reconnect
    1:26 - Deflection Si-check
    1:27 - Ne Reconnect
    1:27 - Te Voice
    1:28 - Ne Perk Up
    1:30 - Si Searching
    1:31 - Te Voice
    1:39 - Ne Reconnect
    1:41 - Ne Perk Up
    1:42 - Ne Deflection Si-check
    1:45 - Fi Smile
    1:51 - Si Searching
    1:51 - Compass (Fi) Check
    1:56 - Ne Reconnect
    1:58 - Te Matter-of-Fact Voice "cruel"
    1:59 - Si Searching
    2:02 - Ne Reconnect
    2:03 - Deflection
    2:09 - Ne Perk Up
    2:12 - Explorer Swaying
    2:14 - Compass (Fi) Check
    2:19 - Ne Reconnect
    2:22 - Te Mild Head Shake
    2:26 - Deflecting Si-check
    2:29 - Ne Perk Up
    2:42 - Si Searching
    2:47 - Ne Perk Up
    2:49 - Fi Unaware Smile
    2:54 - Compass (Fi) Check
    2:59 - Ne Perk Up
    3:00 - Fi Unaware Smile
    3:03 - Ne Reconnect
    3:04 - Si Searching
    3:06 - Ne Reconnect
    3:07 - Fi Inner Warming
    3:10 - Ne Perk Up
    3:15 - Deflection Si check
    3:18 - Fi Inner Warming
    3:19 - Te Head Shake
    3:19 - Ne Perk Up
    3:22 - Te Head Shake
    3:28 - Deflection / Si Searching
    3:31 - Fi Unaware Smie
    3:34 - Si Searching
    3:37 - Ne Reconnect
    3:41 - Compass (Fi) Check
    3:42 - Ne Perk UP
    3:52 - Ne Perk Up
    3:55 - Te Voice "definitely prefer to fit in"
    3:57 - Compass (Fi) Check
    3:57 - Ne Perk Up
    3:59 - Ne Perk Up
    4:01 - Si Searching
    4:11 - Ne Perk Up / Reconnect
    4:19 - Fi Warming Smile
    4:20 - Te Head Shake / Voice

  6. #76
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    You know, I would appreciate you not re-linking my video thread in your post, because if you recall in my first post, I stated I would remove it within a day. So please have the courtesy to remove the link from the post above, as well as the post you quoted me in.

    If you are trying to convince me that I am an ENFP, the above second-by-second playback isn't going to accomplish that. That would require me to fully accept your conclusions as to cognitive functions tied to specific facial movements, as well as accepting that the people you observed and typed to develop this theory were in fact the types you thought they were with the cognitive functions you thought they had, as well as agreeing that all facial movements are a manifestation of cognitive functions and only cognitive functions, and finally that cognitive functions are the end-all-be-all of psychology and resultant behavior. I do not accept any at this point.

    However, you are 100% free to consider me an ENFP, as I know you will continue to do. I am just not sure how you expect to have your theory validated if you have already concluded these behaviors are definitively tied to certain functions.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #77
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCPYSqGrKfs"]don't know if i did this ight[/YOUTUBE]
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  8. #78
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    @Auburn
    I believe the guide is solid, but the execution is failing a lot.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  9. #79
    Member Auburn's Avatar
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    @whatever - Ah. :)
    Not mad. And I apologize if what I posted was nothing new to some of you; still I felt the need to say it as it's important and related to this.

    Yes.. I did note how something seemed a bit off with your Fi. If I'm honest yours is one I'm not entirely sure of. I do see you using Te, Se, Ni and peculiar Fi. But the ordering doesn't seem to be operating... er.. normally (if such a thing exists). I'll retract my assumption of your type for now.

    I wasn't intending this thread to turn out as it has. Mostly I was hoping to get opinions on the cues themselves. Whether your observations resonate with them or not. I am definitely willing to accept that I am wrong, and if one wanted to really properly dispute whether the cues I presented were inaccurate they could do so by showing information to the contrary. Hence why the time was taken to give them a palpable form.

    But of course, simply dismissing them doesn't help add more clarity in either direction.

    @Rasofy - Thanks for taking a look. That's primarily what I was focusing on.


    I really do appreciate all who shared their videos,
    But I think I'm going to head off for now. It was nice meeting you all.

  10. #80
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    @Auburn... the format of doing something based on a clip of someone is the flaw here... people are aware that they are being recorded in most of these cases and modify their behavior accordingly even if subconsciously... for instance, I'm pretty terrified of speaking in front of people and so I actually completely retreat mentally to the most base state of things and stare things down while speaking because it distracts me from thinking "oh dear god, everyone's looking at me... I'm fucking BLUSHING" ... therefore a recording of me speaking would definitely be influenced by that sort of thought pattern instead of any natural form of behavior...

    ... it's like judging the flavors of fruits if the only fruits that you're sampling are canned... you're not going to get an accurate taste because videos are artificial, in a way
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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