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  1. #41
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Wanna explain why what i dont get what these two things have to do with each other or why there is some contradiction or something
    We're talking about Jung's concept of the shadows right which is referring to the tertiary and the inferior right?
    ISFJ, INSFJs - It'd be Ti, Ne, and Ti, Se respectively.

    Many INTJs here identify with Fi as their tertiary function, especially when they do that test by Nardi.
    Yet, if we observe the INFJs/ISFJs here... You'll see a mixture of individuals who identify strongly with Ti, and a mixture of individuals that identify more with Te instead in terms of preference and strength.

    Maybe they haven't individualized these functions (Ti)? Yet, we're talking about individuals who are way past that stage of development that Jung suggested they'd be developed by. Something can't be right there. It's most likely the theory.

    I only recently realised this little note on wikipedia:

    Jung theorized that the dominant function acts alone in its preferred world: exterior for the extraverts, and interior for the introverts. The remaining three functions, he suggested, operate together in the opposite world. If the dominant cognitive function is introverted, the other functions are extraverted, and vice versa. The MBTI Manual summarizes references in Jung's work to the balance in psychological type as follows:
    This seems to be suggesting an that Si dominant individual, would actually be Si, Fe, Te, Ne as opposed to Si, Fe, Ti, Ne proposed by MBTI.
    On a completely unrelated note: FREEDOM from talking about Jung. No more freaking essay till the next exam! =.=

  2. #42
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    We're talking about Jung's concept of the shadows right which is referring to the tertiary and the inferior right?
    ISFJ, INSFJs - It'd be Ti, Ne, and Ti, Se respectively.

    Many INTJs here identify with Fi as their tertiary function, especially when they do that test by Nardi.
    Yet, if we observe the INFJs/ISFJs here... You'll see a mixture of individuals who identify strongly with Ti, and a mixture of individuals that identify more with Te instead in terms of preference and strength.

    Maybe they haven't individualized these functions (Ti)? Yet, we're talking about individuals who are way past that stage of development that Jung suggested they'd be developed by. Something can't be right there. It's most likely the theory.

    I only recently realised this little note on wikipedia:



    This seems to be suggesting an that Si dominant individual, would actually be Si, Fe, Te, Ne as opposed to Si, Fe, Ti, Ne proposed by MBTI.
    On a completely unrelated note: FREEDOM from talking about Jung. No more freaking essay till the next exam! =.=

    When it comes to jungs interpration of tert, people are disagreeing about it, there is no clear evidence of jung thinking it being oriented to either way. However there are hints of jung thinking tert being in same attitude than dom, for example in psychological types jung says:
    "The unconscious functions likewise group themselves in patterns correlated with the conscious ones"

    The pattern of conscious functions for INTP who has differentiated aux, would be according to jung be TiNe, inferior naturally being Fe. Now if the unconscious functions follow the same pattern than conscious ones, this in my opinion would mean that tert is in opposite attitude from inferior, like aux is in different attitude from dom.

    And this is the official MBTI tert attitude thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Isabel Briggs Myers and Type Development
    by Katharine Myers
    The attitude of the tertiary.

    We also discussed a question that is now of some interest in the type community - the attitude of the ter- tiary function. This started with Isabel recalling an incident at the first international type conference in 1975, when Harold Grant presented his picture of type development. He presented a development model with an alternating pattern in atti- tudes: dominant E, auxiliary I, ter- tiary E, fourth I; or dominant I, auxiliary E, tertiary I, fourth E. Isabel listened with great interest and afterwards asked him, “Harold, where do you get that ordering?” to which Grant replied, “Why, of course, from you.” She responded in some bewilderment that, ”No, I always assumed that the tertiary would be in the same attitude as the auxiliary and fourth functions.” In our conversation in 1979, Isabel reflected on this, realizing that Jung had not been clear in this area and that she hadn‘t been either. As she said: Well, I guess I had never paid much attention to the tertiary. I suppose that because the pressure on it from the auxiliary is less than the pressure on the inferior from the dominant, it probably moves back and forth between extraverted and introverted more easily.
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  3. #43
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    He meams a different shadow i think. Opposite order of your top 4. And or stuff we push down in the bacg we drag behind us
    "Shadow" is about the unconscious, so both are connected (the unused functions and all the other stuff we push down. For the unused functions are perspectives we ignore, or push down, in addition to the associated archetypal complexes.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    As much as I like her book, I don't really believe in Lenore Thompson's view of the shadow functions. ITJs - they prefer Fi. That's what they "use". Fe is a really big stretch for them. IFJs prefer Fe. ENFPs prefer Ne and Te. That's what they use. So yeah, I don't think we use the shadow functions very much at all if we're operating in a healthy state.

    If we do use them, I think the lower down the stack you go, the more difficult it is to access them or it's increasingly disfunctional to use them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    We're talking about Jung's concept of the shadows right which is referring to the tertiary and the inferior right?
    ISFJ, INSFJs - It'd be Ti, Ne, and Ti, Se respectively.

    Many INTJs here identify with Fi as their tertiary function, especially when they do that test by Nardi.
    Yet, if we observe the INFJs/ISFJs here... You'll see a mixture of individuals who identify strongly with Ti, and a mixture of individuals that identify more with Te instead in terms of preference and strength.

    Maybe they haven't individualized these functions (Ti)? Yet, we're talking about individuals who are way past that stage of development that Jung suggested they'd be developed by. Something can't be right there. It's most likely the theory.

    This seems to be suggesting an that Si dominant individual, would actually be Si, Fe, Te, Ne as opposed to Si, Fe, Ti, Ne proposed by MBTI.
    The primary/shadow order is really a stack of archetypes that associate with the functions in a particular attitude. So the tertiary will likely be somewhat conscious, and then the inferior starts becoming conscious,especially as we enter mid-life.

    The Nardi cognitive process test (K2C) is measuring the functions as behaviors (and I agree that Fi is greatly Forer-effected so that anyone can identify with it. Like "knowing what you want for yourself"). Lenore Thomson's ship model is also to some extent going by behaviors (she has modified her views since writing that). Hence, the reactions that might stem from the 7th and 8th function may come out "strong", and be picked up by the K2C test as "strength" of "use". And then, Lenore's theory would say they were the "Crow's Nests" or right/left brain alternatives we run to first when the dom. and aux. can't solve the problem. (Socionics Model A is actually similar in having 7th and 8th in 3rd and 4th place!)
    Since the tertiary and inferior are the weakest of the conscious functions, they end up coming out "weakest" (So that the inferior really is "inferior" out of the whole 8). (They are the crew members that have been cast off the ship, with one skiing in the same direction, and the other on a lifeboat trying to pull the whole ship the other way).

    I now also go along with what INTP has been posting, about the functions going back and forth between subject and object, and the attitude orientation ultimately being determined by the "starting/ending" point.
    That to me shows four "natural" functions, S, N, T, and F and that the function-attitudes are an artificial product of these (rather than as eight hard items in themselves, as I was recently debating with someone). So I believe that the complexes are what "turn the volume up" on the opposite end of the objective/subjective cycle, thus differentiating the opposite attitude, but for a time. So if our inferior position is threatened, since this is the anima or soul, then the whole ego feels threatened, constellating the "Daimon" complex, which will turn the volume up on the attitude opposite of what the inferior normally takes. (Thus equaling the dominant attitude, which is reserved for the dominant function, but in this reactive situation, the opposite function takes its place, and it is totally out of conscious control, thus reactive, and often disastrous). If the dominant position is obstructed, then the Opposing Personality Complex will turn up the volume on the opposite orientation. So this process is likely unconscious, and surface mostly through [largely reactive] behavior, and this being picked up by K2C and the ship model.
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  4. #44
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    "Shadow" is about the unconscious, so both are connected (the unused functions and all the other stuff we push down. For the unused functions are perspectives we ignore, or push down, in addition to the associated archetypal complexes.



    The primary/shadow order is really a stack of archetypes that associate with the functions in a particular attitude. So the tertiary will likely be somewhat conscious, and then the inferior starts becoming conscious,especially as we enter mid-life.

    The Nardi cognitive process test (K2C) is measuring the functions as behaviors (and I agree that Fi is greatly Forer-effected so that anyone can identify with it. Like "knowing what you want for yourself"). Lenore Thomson's ship model is also to some extent going by behaviors (she has modified her views since writing that). Hence, the reactions that might stem from the 7th and 8th function may come out "strong", and be picked up by the K2C test as "strength" of "use". And then, Lenore's theory would say they were the "Crow's Nests" or right/left brain alternatives we run to first when the dom. and aux. can't solve the problem. (Socionics Model A is actually similar in having 7th and 8th in 3rd and 4th place!)
    Since the tertiary and inferior are the weakest of the conscious functions, they end up coming out "weakest" (So that the inferior really is "inferior" out of the whole 8). (They are the crew members that have been cast off the ship, with one skiing in the same direction, and the other on a lifeboat trying to pull the whole ship the other way).

    I now also go along with what INTP has been posting, about the functions going back and forth between subject and object, and the attitude orientation ultimately being determined by the "starting/ending" point.
    That to me shows four "natural" functions, S, N, T, and F and that the function-attitudes are an artificial product of these (rather than as eight hard items in themselves, as I was recently debating with someone). So I believe that the complexes are what "turn the volume up" on the opposite end of the objective/subjective cycle, thus differentiating the opposite attitude, but for a time. So if our inferior position is threatened, since this is the anima or soul, then the whole ego feels threatened, constellating the "Daimon" complex, which will turn the volume up on the attitude opposite of what the inferior normally takes. (Thus equaling the dominant attitude, which is reserved for the dominant function, but in this reactive situation, the opposite function takes its place, and it is totally out of conscious control, thus reactive, and often disastrous). If the dominant position is obstructed, then the Opposing Personality Complex will turn up the volume on the opposite orientation. So this process is likely unconscious, and surface mostly through [largely reactive] behavior, and this being picked up by K2C and the ship model.
    That makes complete sense about the unconscious and them all being connected. It absolutely ties these things together.

    So are you saying then that you believe in the ship model?

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  5. #45
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Well, yes, I have always adopted the ship model, as another perspective on Beebe's model. It explained why the 8th place function might seem "strong".
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I now also go along with what INTP has been posting, about the functions going back and forth between subject and object, and the attitude orientation ultimately being determined by the "starting/ending" point.
    That to me shows four "natural" functions, S, N, T, and F and that the function-attitudes are an artificial product of these (rather than as eight hard items in themselves, as I was recently debating with someone).
    Hey, this makes sense. It sure would explain why intuition-dominants may identify with both intuition functions, or why INTJs may identify with Ti (as @Kai says) for example. It also channels what @Mane has suggested.

    My question is simply still along the lines of--"how do the shadow functions play out?" I'm bumpin' this thread largely because I'm curious as to whether there's any consensus--do we even use them, are they mimicked by ego functions, are they repressed, are they the functions that we ought to try to bring into conscious awareness.. ?

    If we don't even have an answer as to how shadow functions act in an individual's type.. well, I can't even count the number of discussions that we've had and conclusions that we've held that all rest upon insanely shaky foundations.


  7. #47
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Shadow functions are just functions not preferred. It's not that they are avoided.


    Therefore reading anything into shadow functions is a waste of time.


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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Shadow functions are just functions not preferred. It's not that they are avoided.
    They are not preferred, yes. That does not mean they aren't avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Therefore reading anything into shadow functions is a waste of time.


    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    It's that simple.
    A little too simple.

  9. #49
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Hey, this makes sense. It sure would explain why intuition-dominants may identify with both intuition functions, or why INTJs may identify with Ti (as Kai says) for example. It also channels what Mane has suggested.

    My question is simply still along the lines of--"how do the shadow functions play out?" I'm bumpin' this thread largely because I'm curious as to whether there's any consensus--do we even use them, are they mimicked by ego functions, are they repressed, are they the functions that we ought to try to bring into conscious awareness.. ?

    If we don't even have an answer as to how shadow functions act in an individual's type.. well, I can't even count the number of discussions that we've had and conclusions that we've held that all rest upon insanely shaky foundations.

    but the whole point of this what eric said(and what i have been saying and what jung has been saying) is that there is no "shadow functions", there is just function S T F N, which can be applied to objective perspective and subjective perspective and whether the function is introverted or extraverted, is just a matter of whether the individual finds the objective or subjective perspective more trusted and orients himself consciously from one perspective, while seeing the other as untrustworthy or irrelevant for the conscious attitude. but naturally we also compare the conscious attitude(actual function) to the opposite attitude(what you call shadow function) and we might become conscious of the opposite and it might turn out to be the one that should be trusted in certain situations more if the preferred one is clearly lacking in perception or ability to judge. but usually the other side is handled by aux function and also gets mixed with inferior more as its the same attitude as aux.

    so basically it would lead to a preferred perception and judgment which looks at things from objective perspective(used in comparison with things in line with external world = extraverted) and for the subjective point of view.

    the deal with this whole differentation of a function thing is, while being equal to learning how to consciously use the functions, but more importantly differentiation is that you start to see the perspective of a function, gain an attitude for the function, thus it becomes conscious. if you dont have preferred attitude for a function, it just unconsciously mixes to both subjective and objective side through projections and introjections. undifferentiated thinking is for example mostly just an afterthought which is reflected from some experience, not what you see ENTJs doing with the stock markets.

    now if you think this afterthought of undifferentiated thinking, by the time something has has happened, you already have sensed it, used F(made an judgment for example that it wasnt worth it) and probably intuition also(where it came from and where its going), so the thinking would most likely be quite negative due to F judgment etc. ramblerambleramble
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  10. #50
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Hey, this makes sense. It sure would explain why intuition-dominants may identify with both intuition functions, or why INTJs may identify with Ti (as @Kai says) for example. It also channels what @Mane has suggested.

    My question is simply still along the lines of--"how do the shadow functions play out?" I'm bumpin' this thread largely because I'm curious as to whether there's any consensus--do we even use them, are they mimicked by ego functions, are they repressed, are they the functions that we ought to try to bring into conscious awareness.. ?

    If we don't even have an answer as to how shadow functions act in an individual's type.. well, I can't even count the number of discussions that we've had and conclusions that we've held that all rest upon insanely shaky foundations.

    I don't know if there is a consensus on shadow functions. But there is a book called "Dynamics of Personality Type" which covers them.

    For example, the shadow type at the bottom of the order, at 8, is called Devilish (-) / Transformative (+). Its function has the opposing attitude of the inferior of a type, such that in my case Inferior Fe becomes Shadow Fi.

    16types also has a description containing much the same elements.
    http://www.bestfittype.com/cognitive...s/16types.html

    "The Devilish Role (sometimes referred to as the 8th function)
    The devilish role can be quite negative. Using the process that plays this role, we might become destructive of ourselves or others. Actions (or inactions) taken when we engage in the process that plays this role are often regretted later. Usually, we are unaware of how to use the process that fills this role and feel like it just erupts and imposes itself rather unconsciously. Yet when we are open to the process that plays the devilish role, it becomes transformative. It gives us the impetus to create something new—to make lemonade out of lemons, rather than lament their sourness."
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