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  1. #31
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    same with intuition - some would get a vague notion of the pattern and run witth the possibilities but miss the underlining meaning and princples (extreme Ne), others would grasp a very deep meaning and underlining patterns within patterns but won't recognize that they have missed other possibilities (extreme Ni), and some would be somewhere in the middle.
    When you say principles, it could be Ti. That would be the natural "mental doorstop" for Ne/Se. Not Ni or Si.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post

    So yeah, I don't think we use the shadow functions very much at all if we're operating in a healthy state.

    If we do use them, I think the lower down the stack you go, the more difficult it is to access them or it's increasingly disfunctional to use them.
    This is interesting to consider. My interpretation of the shadow is the opposite.. that by denying the shadow one remains more closely attached to ego and farther removed from their whole.

    "New Paths in Psychology" (1912). In CW 7: Two Essays on Analytical Psychology. P.425

    If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all his projections, then you get an individual who is conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong, and they must be fought against. He lives in the "House of the Gathering." Such a man knows that whatever is wrong in the world is in himself, and if he only learns to deal with his own shadow he has done something real for the world. He has succeeded in shouldering at least an infinitesimal part of the gigantic, unsolved social problems of our day.

    "Jung saw shadow as the face of the unconscious as a whole, mainly because the shadow is the first aspect of the unconscious we ever experience. It can have a child-like aspect to it, mainly because the unconscious characteristics, having never or seldom seen the conscious light of day, have never had the opportunity to be civilised and integrated into personality. But the shadow also contains the potential for strengthening and developing us. We must remember that it contains not only our denied weaknesses, but also our hidden strengths. While these may at first appear dark and forbidding, they may provide us with new ways of living, with a flexibility and resilience that our former virtuous but rigid life patterns failed to provide."
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  3. #33
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    This is interesting to consider. My interpretation of the shadow is the opposite.. that by denying the shadow one remains more closely attached to ego and farther removed from their whole.

    "New Paths in Psychology" (1912). In CW 7: Two Essays on Analytical Psychology. P.425

    If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all his projections, then you get an individual who is conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong, and they must be fought against. He lives in the "House of the Gathering." Such a man knows that whatever is wrong in the world is in himself, and if he only learns to deal with his own shadow he has done something real for the world. He has succeeded in shouldering at least an infinitesimal part of the gigantic, unsolved social problems of our day.

    "Jung saw shadow as the face of the unconscious as a whole, mainly because the shadow is the first aspect of the unconscious we ever experience. It can have a child-like aspect to it, mainly because the unconscious characteristics, having never or seldom seen the conscious light of day, have never had the opportunity to be civilised and integrated into personality. But the shadow also contains the potential for strengthening and developing us. We must remember that it contains not only our denied weaknesses, but also our hidden strengths. While these may at first appear dark and forbidding, they may provide us with new ways of living, with a flexibility and resilience that our former virtuous but rigid life patterns failed to provide."
    He meams a different shadow i think. Opposite order of your top 4. And or stuff we push down in the bacg we drag behind us

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  4. #34
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    He meams a different shadow i think. Opposite order of your top 4. And or stuff we push down in the bacg we drag behind us
    Yea he does, but its not simply in opposite order, but the undifferentiated functions. Undifferentiated tert for example would be in shadow(and even aux to some degree in young/psychologically undeveloped people), but once differentiated it comes part of the ego.
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  5. #35
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Yea he does, but its not simply in opposite order, but the undifferentiated functions. Undifferentiated tert for example would be in shadow(and even aux to some degree in young/psychologically undeveloped people), but once differentiated it comes part of the ego.
    That makes sense because he didnt have the concept of a four letter type.

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    When you say principles, it could be Ti. That would be the natural "mental doorstop" for Ne/Se. Not Ni or Si.
    both are "minimizing" in a way, but the way i understand it, Ni works by recognizing patterns within patterns, wherein Ti is deduction and conclusion.

  7. #37
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    This is interesting to consider. My interpretation of the shadow is the opposite.. that by denying the shadow one remains more closely attached to ego and farther removed from their whole.

    "New Paths in Psychology" (1912). In CW 7: Two Essays on Analytical Psychology. P.425

    If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all his projections, then you get an individual who is conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong, and they must be fought against. He lives in the "House of the Gathering." Such a man knows that whatever is wrong in the world is in himself, and if he only learns to deal with his own shadow he has done something real for the world. He has succeeded in shouldering at least an infinitesimal part of the gigantic, unsolved social problems of our day.

    "Jung saw shadow as the face of the unconscious as a whole, mainly because the shadow is the first aspect of the unconscious we ever experience. It can have a child-like aspect to it, mainly because the unconscious characteristics, having never or seldom seen the conscious light of day, have never had the opportunity to be civilised and integrated into personality. But the shadow also contains the potential for strengthening and developing us. We must remember that it contains not only our denied weaknesses, but also our hidden strengths. While these may at first appear dark and forbidding, they may provide us with new ways of living, with a flexibility and resilience that our former virtuous but rigid life patterns failed to provide."
    OK so now that I'm not in transit - I have a bit more time for a response. This theme of the shadow seems to come up over and over in different contexts in psychology. There are these pieces of ourselves that we disown or distort our thinking. We project faults we don't admit onto others. We project our good qualities we don't realize onto others. Our ego is this false center - a reflection of what others think vs. who we really are in the interdependent whole of human existence. Our distortions, blind spots etc. leads to many people's downfall. I once took a management class and the instructor said if you look at your opposite type - e.g. INFP is ESTJ - that should strike a nerve. It's close to your shadow. You react by saying - "who is that? yuk." Enneagram is similar in that there are these fixations which are not conscious. Our thinking is distorted. We've lost touch with a core part of ourselves. So, it comes up enough that I'm pretty sure the shadow or something like it is important. I don't think it's the same thing as our lower four functions. They are called shadow functions of course. I just think in the relative scheme of things that those four functions are not the important part.

    This thread had some good stuff in it.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-downfall.html

    I guess my comments in this thread might contradict some of what I said in that thread but I believe I've changed my mind.

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  8. #38
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That makes sense because he didnt have the concept of a four letter type.
    My biggest problem with that idea of the shadow is that we'll have a large amount of INFJs/ISFJs who never individualizes their Ti (despite being over 30), or has somehow inaccurately assessed themselves in term of preference for Te over Ti.

    Then there's the individuals who have developed Ti over Fe. Too many inconsistencies. That's just for the IFJs.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    no, i actually do mean prefering both... the tests are built around preferance of use, not strength (i remember making a thread questioning that somewhere)...

    but i am saying that the view that Ni and Ne conflict behavioraly only stem from the extremes of people who have one or the other, which can certainly be the case for some.
    This is a good point of view. I can certainly imagine a continuum between 'preferring to hone in on what your intuition tells you are the most viable options (or what your intuition tells you is the answer)' and 'preferring to gather up a bunch of appropriate context or possibilities.'

    At least, we ought to allow for some continuous variability in someting in our cognitive orientations, because it seems that we won't fully explain orientations otherwise. The discrepancies in this thread and in the cognitive-functions-as-skills tests hint at this.

    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    Very well said. When I took the cognitive functions test I found the same thing, with excellent (100%) usage of Ne, and good (67%, I think) usage of Ni. Even though I recognize I have a very clear orientation and preference for Ne, I find myself able to coalesce the two intuitions together on a regular basis, and these are often my most strongly held notions.
    Hell, Ne and Ni are pretty much neck-and-neck for me. My weakness, according to tests, introspection, and experience, is both sensing functions.

  10. #40
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    My biggest problem with that idea of the shadow is that we'll have a large amount of INFJs/ISFJs who never individualizes their Ti (despite being over 30), or has somehow inaccurately assessed themselves in term of preference for Te over Ti.

    Then there's the individuals who have developed Ti over Fe. Too many inconsistencies. That's just for the IFJs.
    Wanna explain why what i dont get what these two things have to do with each other or why there is some contradiction or something
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