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  1. #31
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Do you feel anxiety? I feel paralyzed by anxiety when people are emo (sad). Last year, I was at a funeral for someone I barely knew. At the end of it, I had to walk past the loved ones and give condolences. I noticed people around me were so caring, even the nerdy 'thinker' guys, and all I could say with a grin and a nervous laugh was, "God bless you." They looked horrified. Fe fail.
    yikes...no it's not that bad.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  2. #32
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    people seem to confuse 3 largely seperate definitions of I/E

    the common usage - "how are you doing socially?" i find this to be way too contextual to define a person.

    the Keirsey definition - "where do you get more energy from, being alone or being with other people?" i find that at least with me, this seems to be a false dichotonomy - there are periods in my life where it was there or there. maybe some people have an orientation ,but for me both "energy sources" can be tapped under different circumstances.

    the MBTI definition - in theory it questions "do you look towards the outside to build your mental schemes from or your do you do it by looking inwards?" this works well with Fe & Fi, Se & Si, but becames a vague metaphor with Ne & Ni and Te & Ti. i have a few alternatives in the works...

    i'd say for me the tipping point here is that i do my best internal-processing when i am conveying my ideas, thoughts or feelings to other people. you know the douchebag that just likes hearing himself talk a lot? that's me, i need to hear myself talk to process what i am talking about
    .
    I only really started to make sense to myself when I decided that I was an extravert. And this is primarily the sense in which I am an extravert.

    I wish I remember where I read it.. but some typology blog said something along the lines of, "Extraverts need external input to function properly. It just so happens that people are very good sources of input." If I have a problem that I'm trying to work out, or something I am trying to understand, and if I try to work it out only in my head, then it can become quite a struggle.

    If I start depicting the problem on a piece of paper, I process so much better. And If I talk to somebody, I'm a peak efficiency. There are so many ideas and things that I've gone into loops and stalled in progress when on my own, to only gain very deep understandings of when I start blabbing it to another person. I have trouble properly grasping things unless I express it externally first.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    If I start depicting the problem on a piece of paper, I process so much better. And If I talk to somebody, I'm a peak efficiency.
    same here. as a sideaffect, it also happens to mean tons of records of my ideas, thoughts, feelings, etc sometimes just documents or papers, but often in the form of emails i've sent, PMs, posts, and by contacting other people who remember stuff about me better then myself, and then usually i will have the associations to what brought me there, and thus it allowed me to compensate for my inferior Si.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i am not sure if jung brought leeway for change between extroversion and introversion, but i don't think the MBTI does:
    an introvert becoming an extravert means your dominant function changes places with the auxilary, the teritary function changes places with the inferior, and if you add th extended version of the MBTI, then the same happens with the shadow functions (showing itself under stress). that's 4 major changes in how someone processes information... that's a hell of a drastic change.
    Right, yeah, I agree. But the functions are really about explaining people@projection, imo.
    The first (dominant) function summarizes overall behavior into an abstract containing idea to illustrate that behavior; illustration meaning that it doesn't really explain it in terms of causation.
    The second (auxiliary) function isn't really supposed to supersede the first, but explain two ways in which the first function manifests.
    The idea of the unconscious then really applies only to the first (dominant) function because by coloring your behavior intensely with that particular function, its philosophical dual orientation of being in the world (inferior function) has to be ignored or suppressed; but ignoring it completely has negative consequences on the ego, affecting it the way Jung tries to describe analytically and based on his empirical evidence.

    Once that first function changes, the idea becomes less useful because now we have to look at causation, which gets complicated.

    compare that to the keirsey vresion, where (from my exp) its entirely possible for someone to drive energy from both socializing and being alone at different times in their lives, or the common use of I/E, where it's entirely someone shy who doesn't like public speaking might get over their fear and become a social butterfly, while someone who has spent a lot of time socializing might find their life empty and decidee to take some time to themselves.
    I don't really like the idea of needing to describe it outside abstraction because then we are trying to pinpoint causation to the functions. And it's not that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I only really started to make sense to myself when I decided that I was an extravert. And this is primarily the sense in which I am an extravert.

    I wish I remember where I read it.. but some typology blog said something along the lines of, "Extraverts need external input to function properly. It just so happens that people are very good sources of input." If I have a problem that I'm trying to work out, or something I am trying to understand, and if I try to work it out only in my head, then it can become quite a struggle.

    If I start depicting the problem on a piece of paper, I process so much better. And If I talk to somebody, I'm a peak efficiency. There are so many ideas and things that I've gone into loops and stalled in progress when on my own, to only gain very deep understandings of when I start blabbing it to another person. I have trouble properly grasping things unless I express it externally first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    same here. as a sideaffect, it also happens to mean tons of records of my ideas, thoughts, feelings, etc sometimes just documents or papers, but often in the form of emails i've sent, PMs, posts, and by contacting other people who remember stuff about me better then myself, and then usually i will have the associations to what brought me there, and thus it allowed me to compensate for my inferior Si.
    But this isn't really what extroversion is about either. What you're describing are good ways to learn. It's usually recommended that teaching is a good way to see if you understand something because it requires that your mind take the disconnected thoughts in your head and structure them; sometimes people think they understand something and find out that when it comes to being tested on that knowledge, they can't apply it or explain an understanding, which this is all good for, and probably for all people, as you both show.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    They did. Extraversion is simply a perceptual orientation towards information outside of one's self. Extraverted intuition, thinking and sensing might very well not be concerned about other people, even though since we're humans, they eventually have to.
    I don't really prefer this either though. Introverts don't necessarily provide their own stimulus, just as extroverts don't necessarily require outside stimulus to provide their own.

    How does this sound?
    Introversion is the process in which the world is processed into causation. Extroversion is the process of creating causation.

    Of course, everything here is open for criticism. I'm willing to discuss this in length if anyone wants to, so that we all may better understand this without the effects of 'Argumentum ad baculum' or 'Argumentum ad populum' that seems to be what typology pretty much amounts to, especially MBTI.

  5. #35
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Maybe you don't prefer "this", but that's the way it is.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Maybe you don't prefer "this", but that's the way it is.
    Alright genius. Since you have to take what I say literally and turn this into vitriol. Let me spell it out for you.
    There are logical problems with your definition.

    Extraversion is simply a perceptual orientation towards information outside of one's self.
    Perceptual orientation can mean any number of things. Introverts deal with information outside of them-self too, that's the whole point of introversion. Your definition is just a circle-jerk.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Right, yeah, I agree. But the functions are really about explaining people@projection, imo.
    The first (dominant) function summarizes overall behavior into an abstract containing idea to illustrate that behavior; illustration meaning that it doesn't really explain it in terms of causation.
    The second (auxiliary) function isn't really supposed to supersede the first, but explain two ways in which the first function manifests.
    The idea of the unconscious then really applies only to the first (dominant) function because by coloring your behavior intensely with that particular function, its philosophical dual orientation of being in the world (inferior function) has to be ignored or suppressed; but ignoring it completely has negative consequences on the ego, affecting it the way Jung tries to describe analytically and based on his empirical evidence.
    i agree: at this point it is useless in terms of proveable causation. its just mental schemes we (as people trying to understand patterns in human behaviors and thoughts) can use to recognize what's behind it. from my understanding the only evidance we have at this point is that the statistical curve of traits that supposidly come together seems to work better then a completely random distribution, but the mechanics behind that are still guesswork. that doesn't make them useless though - just encourages their user to be cautious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    But this isn't really what extroversion is about either. What you're describing are good ways to learn.
    excelent question! do MBTI types diverse in their prefered learning methods?

  8. #38
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post

    ...

    But this isn't really what extroversion is about either. What you're describing are good ways to learn. It's usually recommended that teaching is a good way to see if you understand something because it requires that your mind take the disconnected thoughts in your head and structure them; sometimes people think they understand something and find out that when it comes to being tested on that knowledge, they can't apply it or explain an understanding, which this is all good for, and probably for all people, as you both show.

    ...

    How does this sound?
    Introversion is the process in which the world is processed into causation. Extroversion is the process of creating causation.
    I'd agree with you, except for the fact that the act of externalizing doesn't also help me learn better, it also allows me to figure out what I feel or think about things. It's not just about learning a new concept. As it is.. things outside myself feel real, things in my head feel malleable and nebulous. I need to establish some sort of feedback loop to be able to make an impression on myself.

    I don't have the energy to model how this works within the MBTI or Jungian or whatever framework. But, coming from a place where I did operate as an introvert for many years due to depression, when I started becoming healthy my behaviours started becoming those of an Extraverted profile. Or maybe.. I became healthy when emulating the behaviours of an extraverted profile. In any case, actual people interaction was only a portion of what 'energized' me.

    I've never liked those questions: are you energized by people or by being alone? I need to hang out with people.. I need connection. I need to be alone to make sure I don't get lost in people. It's one of those ENFP things, I hear. Ne energizes me most, in both modes.

  9. #39
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    I can buy the whole "having one's head in the clouds" thing for a reason why a ENxx might come across as an introvert.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    excelent question! do MBTI types diverse in their prefered learning methods?
    A "for instance": reading an instruction manual or lecture step-by-step grates me, but I know that others prefer that method. I'd rather develop a concept of the whole shebang as soon as possible and then delve into the details. This often means skimming material or reading it in bits and pieces first and coming back in for the rest.

    In addition, the more ways I can learn something, the better. Allow me access to graphics, text, animations, hands-on exercises, and an intuitive/emotional/gut-level understanding of something, and I'll have grasped it completely. The information will have become a part of me, in a sense. I'll be able to tie aspects of what I've learned into many different contexts.

    I'll leave a translation to "MBTI-ese" to the imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I need to establish some sort of feedback loop to be able to make an impression on myself.
    This for me, too.

    I don't have the energy to model how this works within the MBTI or Jungian or whatever framework.
    Oh, and this too.

  10. #40
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I only really started to make sense to myself when I decided that I was an extravert. And this is primarily the sense in which I am an extravert.

    I wish I remember where I read it.. but some typology blog said something along the lines of, "Extraverts need external input to function properly. It just so happens that people are very good sources of input." If I have a problem that I'm trying to work out, or something I am trying to understand, and if I try to work it out only in my head, then it can become quite a struggle.

    If I start depicting the problem on a piece of paper, I process so much better. And If I talk to somebody, I'm a peak efficiency. There are so many ideas and things that I've gone into loops and stalled in progress when on my own, to only gain very deep understandings of when I start blabbing it to another person. I have trouble properly grasping things unless I express it externally first.
    Hmm... how would you differentiate this and an E-type 6 though? 6's don't feel comfortable relying on themselves for answers, so they look externally for answers. And I can assure you, I'm an introvert AND a Type 6.
    MBTI: INFP
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    Fi > Ne > Ti > Fe > Se > Si > Te > Ni

    "Forgiveness means letting go of the past." ~ Gerald Jampolsky
    "I am justice!" ~ Light Yagami, Death Note
    "The choices people make tell you a lot about a person, but the reasons [...] tell you even more." ~ Albus Dumbledore (paraphrased)

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