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Thread: Signs of Ni

  1. #41
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    The manifestation of Ni within an Ni-dom doesn't bear the greatest difficulty in efforts to find. You will undoubtedly come across an individual who often holds a concentrated, yet inattentive look. It makes them seem hazy at times like their mind is being tripped over and over... so in outward projection, it may look like a person who is concentrating on invisible surroundings that you yourself may have difficulty trying to apprehend simply because you are not experiencing within mind what they are. In communication, they may return what you say in different nodes of perception to give an alternate understanding of your deduction so as to play the trade of thoughts upon what is being reasoned. Opinions may often be given during communication of the thought, before the thought or in conclusive form of the thought depending on whether the Ni user has thought about the topic beforehand, or is processing it during conversation.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    The manifestation of Ni within an Ni-dom doesn't bear the greatest difficulty in efforts to find. You will undoubtedly come across an individual who often holds a concentrated, yet inattentive look. It makes them seem hazy at times like their mind is being tripped over and over... so in outward projection, it may look like a person who is concentrating on invisible surroundings that you yourself may have difficulty trying to apprehend simply because you are not experiencing within mind what they are. In communication, they may return what you say in different nodes of perception to give an alternate understanding of your deduction so as to play the trade of thoughts upon what is being reasoned. Opinions may often be given during communication of the thought, before the thought or in conclusive form of the thought depending on whether the Ni user has thought about the topic beforehand, or is processing it during conversation.
    Yes to all, but especially the bolded.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I love the way Richard Rorty (INTJ) writes in his own language, using famous philosophers, writers, artists as metaphors or simple means to evoke certain concepts, not even attempting to make it all clear in order to preserve the beauty of an idea. Another and odd case is Wittgenstein (presumably INFJ), in whose writings one can see the beauty of Ni ideas dismantled by ugly Ti rummaging. I believe it is the ugly part that has made Wittgenstein palatable to most philosophers - the Ti crowd.
    Bolded is Ni

    The beauty of detail is Si
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #44
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    Wow, this has really developed well. Thanks specifically to @Zarathustra and @uumlau for the great explanations!

    The static verses dynamic distinction is very interesting, though I'll have to think about it more to really appreciate how it works in practice. I just don't think a lot of Ne ideas can be packaged like the gravity example. It is commonsense to know that one principal can be present in different situations, yet that principle is still subject to adaptation within each example. I'll use a personal example, I play many games competitively and my theory is that forcing your opponent to react to you by creating your own low risk, high reward situations is the key to any good strategy. Is this static or dynamic? Well I at least think it's dynamic as different games have different components and so this same principle should be adapted in different ways. Am I using Ni though? That's doubtful, I would think that I'm just using a more developed form of Ne. I dunno, what you think, is this Ni? Are there more examples you can give? Maybe I'm just the bestest thing ever with 2 well developed iNtuitive functions . Though the thought of having well developed Se+Ni (which seems to be needed for this sort of world view) seems highly unlikely.

    PS. Just for the record, I think I had a good understanding of Ni before I made this thread. The problem was simply that it's very hard to actively see precisely what someone's thinking process is, which seemed to be the only way to find Ni. Maybe I should just give up on the short and quick methods.
    Chimera of Filth

    A gruesome beast with dripping flesh
    Clings to me as a sick fixture
    My throbbing heart it gnawed apart
    It stalks and hunts me through mirrors

  5. #45
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    Wow, this has really developed well. Thanks specifically to @Zarathustra and @uumlau for the great explanations!

    The static verses dynamic distinction is very interesting, though I'll have to think about it more to really appreciate how it works in practice. I just don't think a lot of Ne ideas can be packaged like the gravity example. It is commonsense to know that one principal can be present in different situations, yet that principle is still subject to adaptation within each example. I'll use a personal example, I play many games competitively and my theory is that forcing your opponent to react to you by creating your own low risk, high reward situations is the key to any good strategy. Is this static or dynamic? Well I at least think it's dynamic as different games have different components and so this same principle should be adapted in different ways. Am I using Ni though? That's doubtful, I would think that I'm just using a more developed form of Ne. I dunno, what you think, is this Ni? Are there more examples you can give? Maybe I'm just the bestest thing ever with 2 well developed iNtuitive functions . Though the thought of having well developed Se+Ni (which seems to be needed for this sort of world view) seems highly unlikely.

    PS. Just for the record, I think I had a good understanding of Ni before I made this thread. The problem was simply that it's very hard to actively see precisely what someone's thinking process is, which seemed to be the only way to find Ni. Maybe I should just give up on the short and quick methods.
    With respect to your example of gaming strategy, there is a great deal of difference between arriving at the same conclusions and thinking the same way. The gravity example is neatly "packaged" precisely because the conclusions had to be based on how each thinker was thinking. It isn't as if Einstein didn't understand Newton's theory, or that INTJs are incapable of understanding Einstein's theory.

    Also note how you phrase it: you have a particular strategy that you employ in all problems of a particular class. Your concept "overlays" the reality. The Ni approach would probably not even classify that as a strategy, and think of it instead as a more general approach of maintaining initiative, where any specific action is determined in the moment. Ni would also be constantly evaluating the approach on a case-by-case basis, and alter tactics should the initial tactics appear to be ineffective.

    NTJ types are often regarded as superior strategists, but they get the reputation not because they figure out a great strategy and stick with it (overlay/apply the strategy to all problems of a particular class), but because they're observing and re-evaluating based on the Se-style information in front of them: they keep their eye on a particular goal and the tools available to achieve that goal, and every once in a while, like an "Ah ha!" solution to a puzzle, a shortcut solution appears and they apply it on the spot. To everyone else, it looks like they planned it, but no, they were simply prepared for the possibilities.

    That's the dynamic vs static I'm talking about.

    Here's another example that should highlight Ni-style thinking for you, using gravity again. (I use it because it's highly abstract, but most everyone at least has a basic idea of what it is. There aren't many topics like that in the world!)

    I've always regarded the "laws" of physics more as "descriptions". The quality of the descriptions varies, but the descriptions can be improved. I regard all of the following as valid versions of a "law of gravity":

    1. Things fall towards the ground.
    2. What goes up must go down.
    3. All bodies exert a force on each other directly proportional to their mass and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.
    4. Mass-energy curves spacetime.
    5. Some future theory about quantum gravity that actually works.


    In my Ni worldview, these are all "true". There isn't a single false statement. An INTP would disagree (using Ti Ne instead of Ni Te), and find flaws in perhaps every statement. The first two ignore the concept of escape velocity (it is possible to throw something up and have it never fall down again, though it takes advanced technology to do so), the third neglects the fact that gravity bends light, which is massless, the fourth ignores quantum mechanics, and the fifth is simply unknowable.

    But really, for all practical purposes, I do not need string theory or loop quantum gravity to determine that a cup of water is too close to the edge of the table and there is a hyperactive 4-yr-old bouncing around in close proximity and conclude that the cup and water will likely fall onto the floor, spilling its contents. I just need to know that things fall down. Description (1) is "good enough."

    A lot of the Ni dynamism is all about evaluating a situation to figure out which model (Ni) applies to the situation at hand (Se). This can be very annoying to others when we enter into arguments, because we're generally not trying to argue for some absolute truth in a precise manner, but we're really just trying to figure out which argument the other person or people will best be able to understand. This makes it often feel to others as if we're changing the rules and the logic on the fly, in an effort to "win" the argument on an unfair basis. I'm not saying this never happens, but the criticism comes even when I know I'm just trying to make ideas clear and not trying to win anything.

    The switching around of rules is how we end up using puns all the time: any particular Se-style "data point" can indicate all sorts of rules. In the case of puns, it's the multiple meanings of words, and words that sound alike but otherwise mean entirely different things. When we're punning, it isn't like we plan the pun, but rather a word or set of words occurs in our thoughts as a reaction to what we encounter in our immediate environment. We realize, in the moment, that those words not only apply to the current situation, but to one or more other unrelated situations. Usually, we just chuckle to ourselves and make sure we use words that can only be interpreted in one way, but sometimes these word-coincidences are just too funny not to share.

    My current avatar is another example of rules switching. It comes from a "Bad Lip Reading" of a Michael Buble video. Imagine if you just had the video, but no sound. Consider the video the Se data. Ni fills in the blanks, in this case deliberately badly. When we do such things, we don't really know what we'll end up with, but it's often rather funny.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The switching around of rules is how we end up using puns all the time: any particular Se-style "data point" can indicate all sorts of rules. In the case of puns, it's the multiple meanings of words, and words that sound alike but otherwise mean entirely different things. When we're punning, it isn't like we plan the pun, but rather a word or set of words occurs in our thoughts as a reaction to what we encounter in our immediate environment. We realize, in the moment, that those words not only apply to the current situation, but to one or more other unrelated situations. Usually, we just chuckle to ourselves and make sure we use words that can only be interpreted in one way, but sometimes these word-coincidences are just too funny not to share.
    Much different then NeSi style of humor.
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Much different then NeSi style of humor.
    What would describe as NeSi style of humor, as a comparison?

  8. #48
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Ne/Si humor:

    Quote Originally Posted by Monty Python
    King Arthur: I am your king.
    Woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
    King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
    Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
    [Angelic music plays... ]
    King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
    Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
    Forms of government are in this scenario Si points. Ne is juxtaposing these. Each party has a different idea of what "should be" (Si), and Ne plays them off of each other.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #49
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ne/Si humor:



    Forms of government are in this scenario Si points. Ne is juxtaposing these. Each party has a different idea of what "should be" (Si), and Ne plays them off of each other.
    I dont see anything funny about this or this being something that me, my ENFP mom or my INFP or ENTP friend would say. Also Si isnt about what should be, its about what is. What shouod be is an vision about the future, not something concrete that is, so this should be thing is more about N + other functions.

    Your earlier Ni humor thing sounds more what NPs seem to do quite often, so its not really Ni thing either.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  10. #50
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    What shouod be is an vision about the future [...]
    Oy vey...

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