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Thread: Signs of Ni

  1. #281
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    @OrangeAppled's post was awesome BTW

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ni is "narrow" because it's only answering one question at a time. It is the question that both provides focus and excludes possibilities.

    Mature Ni often asks a meta-question, namely, "Am I asking the right question?"

    Even less mature Ni do this to a large degree, usually by walking away from a problem after working on it without solving it. After we stop thinking about the problem, we get to "reset" the question, and come back to it a while later with an ever-so-slightly different question, and it's the different question that provides the instant "a-ha" style answer.
    Fascinating.

    *takes notes*

    Good observations, here. Though I would suggest that there isn't so much a passive or intentional attempt to regulate reality. Rather, it is opportunism. The same way an athlete keeps ready, waiting for the ball to come his way and react appropriately, an Ni-dom keeps an eye on the inner dynamics (the Ni building blocks), and acts when the dynamics are favorable.

    Such opportunism makes people think INTJs are great strategists, or that INFJs are great manipulators. Obviously, if events worked out to be so favorable to themselves, they must have planned the whole thing, right? No. We only have a vague idea how things will work out. We just wait until they're virtually certain to work out. I bring an umbrella because I know it will rain today. I didn't make it rain. See the difference?
    These are some interesting points. One thing I notice about Ni-doms is just how much they want to prepare for what might likely happen and how much they take pleasure in anticipating or even pre-empting it.

    I have a close INTJ friend who does this. Now and then, he will look me in the eyes and earnestly ask what I think about a specific issue (perhaps a current event that has spurred debate for example). He will then listen intently to my answer, perhaps asking another question to clarify, until I speak some sort of magic words. He will then suddenly straighten up, abruptly raising his finger in the air, eyes widened, and say, with some enthusiasm, "exactly!". He then will explain either how I inadvertently hit the nail right on the head (and addressed the essence of the issue according to his view of things) or how I fell into a common trap that people often do.

    OK so it's not always exactly like this, but whenever we are discussing something he clearly has investigated or pondered upon, he will often suddenly become very responsive and leap upon my words with delight; he then explains what added information he has uncovered (which clarifies or changes the issue), and/or his theory on the matter. I don't mean to say it is some sort of arrogance, it's rather endearing actually. I also think he asks only because he thinks I'm a sensible and perceptive person and he values my opinion. But it is so interesting to see how much enjoyment he takes in people crossing the same path he has perceived intuitively.

    I see the same in INFJs as well. For example they might try to pre-emptively counteract a false impression/sense/feeling you have about or toward them when you first meet them; or perhaps if you openly express this false impression they will leap upon it and correct you in no uncertain terms. With INXJs in general, it can seem like they are displeased when you get such things wrong, but really they seem to inwardly enjoy it, saying to themselves (and sometimes to others) "AHA! You've foolishly fallen into that trap and I knew you would!".
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  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I didn't make it rain.
    I did.


  3. #283
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post

    I have a close INTJ friend who does this. Now and then, he will look me in the eyes and earnestly ask what I think about a specific issue (perhaps a current event that has spurred debate for example). He will then listen intently to my answer, perhaps asking another question to clarify, until I speak some sort of magic words. He will then suddenly straighten up, abruptly raising his finger in the air, eyes widened, and say, with some enthusiasm, "exactly!". He then will explain either how I inadvertently hit the nail right on the head (and addressed the essence of the issue according to his view of things) or how I fell into a common trap that people often do.

    OK so it's not always exactly like this, but whenever we are discussing something he clearly has investigated or pondered upon, he will often suddenly become very responsive and leap upon my words with delight; he then explains what added information he has uncovered (which clarifies or changes the issue), and/or his theory on the matter. I don't mean to say it is some sort of arrogance, it's rather endearing actually. I also think he asks only because he thinks I'm a sensible and perceptive person and he values my opinion. But it is so interesting to see how much enjoyment he takes in people crossing the same path he has perceived intuitively.

    I see the same in INFJs as well. For example they might try to pre-emptively counteract a false impression/sense/feeling you have about or toward them when you first meet them; or perhaps if you openly express this false impression they will leap upon it and correct you in no uncertain terms. With INXJs in general, it can seem like they are displeased when you get such things wrong, but really they seem to inwardly enjoy it, saying to themselves (and sometimes to others) "AHA! You've foolishly fallen into that trap and I knew you would!".
    I don't think they really inwardly enjoy someone getting something wrong. On the surface, that is a frustrating waste of time. It's not efficient. I think INTJs do have a hard time putting their nebulous thoughts into words. The banter back and forth helps them to frame their thoughts. So, when you articulate something that collides with what they have been thinking (actually positively or negatively), they are probably using that interaction - the dynamic between the two of you - to help articulate what they have been mulling over in their minds. It is a very key thing for an Ni dom - to be able to communicate what is going on inside and I believe they often need other people to help them pull these things out. At least I do.

    It has something to do with hearing what others say - agreeing, disagreeing, and then elaboration on that.

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  4. #284
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    We might not enjoy someone getting something wrong, at least I don't, but there is a sense of the pieces fitting together when someone does err in a way that we have internally predicted. If someone avoids the error, or even points it out for what it is, it is almost exciting: yes, they got it! If they make an unanticipated error, it can be perplexing or disappointing: I never anticipated THAT mistake, or more rarely, I didn't think they could be that [insert negative modifier here].

    Yes, external interaction can be helpful, especially in the form of questions that show interest, and reveal what part of the explanation was not sufficiently clear. Lack of questions comes across as lack of interest, which is almost insulting.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #285
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think INTJs do have a hard time putting their nebulous thoughts into words. The banter back and forth helps them to frame their thoughts. So, when you articulate something that collides with what they have been thinking (actually positively or negatively), they are probably using that interaction - the dynamic between the two of you - to help articulate what they have been mulling over in their minds. It is a very key thing for an Ni dom - to be able to communicate what is going on inside and I believe they often need other people to help them pull these things out. At least I do.

    It has something to do with hearing what others say - agreeing, disagreeing, and then elaboration on that.
    So you actually enjoy people asking the questions or explaining their views because it give you an opportunity to explain and address the individual aspects in regards to your view? In other words instead of declaring and outlining your whole theory outright (which is difficult to do), you invite a dialogue which allows that theory to be revealled piece by piece. Would you say that your approach is to prove your theory by defeating the counter-arguments, rather than by attempting to substantiate your core argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We might not enjoy someone getting something wrong, at least I don't, but there is a sense of the pieces fitting together when someone does err in a way that we have internally predicted. If someone avoids the error, or even points it out for what it is, it is almost exciting: yes, they got it! If they make an unanticipated error, it can be perplexing or disappointing: I never anticipated THAT mistake, or more rarely, I didn't think they could be that [insert negative modifier here].

    Yes, external interaction can be helpful, especially in the form of questions that show interest, and reveal what part of the explanation was not sufficiently clear. Lack of questions comes across as lack of interest, which is almost insulting.
    Yeah, this is more what I meant - pleasure in anticipating/predicting an outcome, whether it's a good or bad one.
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #286
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i know, thats basically what i said, what i said was the reason/cause for this(impatience is another reason). you see the reason is whats the core issue(or the reasons reason..), saying that something is, is the thing i was talking about earlier being the superficial level of things(S).

    this not seeing something as relevant is what causes the impatience in some situation, this impatience then manifests in not listening anymore or interrupting.

    first sentence combined with next, is a logical fallacy. if i rely too much on logic and my logic is biased, then its not logic that im relying on, its feeling that im relying on(which is just masked as logic), because this letting feelings guide your thinking is what bias is. its funny that next you claim that INTJs are all about core issue, but you just made a mistake in looking at the core issue(exactly the type of what i have been saying that INTJs do all the time, but all INTJs saying that it doesent happen).

    also i find it pointless to tell people that their thinking is biased, unless you point out the bias. it makes you look like you are just projecting or making some irrational F judgments(not saying that you are, just saying that it makes you look like you are).

    ok. and to that last sentence, quite often i dont react to what other people are talking about, especially if i dont care about it much, am tired, etc. that doesent mean that im not listening to, also im pretty good at doing other things and listening at the same time, but not good at reacting to what people are saying while im doing other stuff. actually the INTJs i have seen are pretty much the same with this. it doesent mean that im not listening and i dont need to put off other stuff while listening to most stuff people tell me.

    core issues are rarely simple and complicated things cannot be communicated concisely unless you leave stuff out, therefore in order to see the core issue in all its beauty(and not just look at it superficially), you need to go into details, alot, especially if its something as complex as human cognition. this raises another issue, usually with INTJs, when i do leave things out that i dont see as relevant enough to write several walls of text about(that they complain about), i get accused of having bias or they see me thinking that INTJs suck balls(if i tell how INTJ is bad at something and INTP is better at it and not tell all the great things about INTJs also). this makes it really frustrating communicating with INTJs often, they dont want walls of detailed text, so when you dont give them detailed walls of text, they draw false conclusions and accuse you of crap that they are doing themselves. makes no sense..
    INTP - I know you are a really smart guy and you know an enormous amount. However, our thought processes are very different. Sometimes I don't completely understand what you are saying. I probably shouldn't have said some of those things in that previous post, but I believe I became a little frustrated. You have a tendency to INTJ bash and it is frequently tied back, I think, to a friend of yours who is an INTJ and your frustrations in dealing with him.

    We don't communicate in the same way. One point I tried to make was that you trust your Ti too much. Perhaps I could have been more precise on the language - using the word "logic" vs. "Ti". This language thing is a common barrier between INTPs and INTJs. The INTPs are hung up on the right way of expressing something and the INTJ is focused on the gist of what is important. Neither perspective is wrong. You come across like you believe your way of thinking is better. You seem think that your Ti+Ne is deep and that Ni+Te is superficial. This I believe is the problem. It's not appreciating the other cognitive styles that people have and thinking yours is better.

    At least that is my perception.

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  7. #287
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So you actually enjoy people asking the questions or explaining their views because it give you an opportunity to explain and address the individual aspects in regards to your view? In other words instead of declaring and outlining your whole theory outright (which is difficult to do), you invite a dialogue which allows that theory to be revealled piece by piece. Would you say that your approach is to prove your theory by defeating the counter-arguments, rather than by attempting to substantiate your core argument?
    That's pretty close. I don't like the word "theory". It sounds too theoretical. But let's put that aside for the moment.

    The key thing is finding a means of expression. That can be done verbally or in writing. So, I can't lay out my whole theory without either a) giving it some thought and writing it down such as I am doing right now or b) having talked through it previously and expressing it verbally. The thoughts are too jumbled. They don't roll right off the tongue like they would for an Ne dom. Brainstorming or bantering back and forth is great because it helps me to piece together the thoughts.

    Then, once the theory is articulated, rather than "counter-arguments", I would say the approach is to poke holes in the theory. This is usually done through comparison with facts, evidence or looking at a historical basis.

    Sometimes I just have an idea and am sure of it though or perhaps there is just some basic belief that logically supports the theory and there is not much in the way of facts to back it up.

    Here is an example. I work in the computer security field. I've been in it for a long time. Nobody suggested that I go into it. It was my idea alone. My simple logic for going into the field was that computers were getting increasingly smaller, more distributed and increasingly connected together. Security seemed like it would be a hard problem to solve. There are so many places where there could be holes. It would be complex and difficult. I was certain of it though I didn't know exactly how it would play out. I had been an application developer. People told me I was crazy to go into that area but I thought differently. Anyway, it worked out. I got into it pretty early.

    I think principles and frameworks are important too but it's not something I gravitate towards or am gifted at. When I need to do that, I'll typically involve someone like an INTP who is better at that stuff than I am.

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  8. #288
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    INTP - I know you are a really smart guy and you know an enormous amount. However, our thought processes are very different. Sometimes I don't completely understand what you are saying. I probably shouldn't have said some of those things in that previous post, but I believe I became a little frustrated. You have a tendency to INTJ bash and it is frequently tied back, I think, to a friend of yours who is an INTJ and your frustrations in dealing with him.

    We don't communicate in the same way. One point I tried to make was that you trust your Ti too much. Perhaps I could have been more precise on the language - using the word "logic" vs. "Ti". This language thing is a common barrier between INTPs and INTJs. The INTPs are hung up on the right way of expressing something and the INTJ is focused on the gist of what is important. Neither perspective is wrong. You come across like you believe your way of thinking is better. You seem think that your Ti+Ne is deep and that Ni+Te is superficial. This I believe is the problem. It's not appreciating the other cognitive styles that people have and thinking yours is better.

    At least that is my perception.
    i saw some scientist talking about newtons(INTJ) and einsteins(INTP) different approaches to science and i think it showed the difference between the thinking of these types quite well. i dont remember exact words, but it was something like "newton was looking at how mass works and making conclusions from that, while einstein was looking at why mass works/behaves the way it does and draw conclusions from that".

    i said that INTJs go into depth of things by looking at things from superficial level(SeTe), which is exactly what newton was doing there. while i think einstein was looking at the core issues to begin with, since i think the core issue of things is the reason(or reasons of reason, or reasons of reasons of reasons.., how ever deep you need to dig in order to get to the core issue) of things.

    im not saying that INTPs way of cognition is better, its not always the best thing to dwell too deep on the core issues, especially if the subject is somewhat unknown. and like the case with einstein, he wouldnt had been able to make up his theories without there already being newtons revolutionary work.

    this INTJs often not understanding what im saying happens all the time, i think its exactly because of that precision thing you mentioned. like i mentioned, those core issues(/reasons) tend to be complicated, especially in the mind of an INTP. so in order to communicate them to others, they need to be abstracted ALOT and the abstraction is done by thinking(Abstract thinking(Ti) singles out the rational, logical qualities of a given content from its intellectually irrelevant components. - jung) and doing the abstraction from mostly Ne(which is influenced by Fe on determining what connections are worth thinking, but naturally since Fe is inferior its not doing its job too well most the time). while INTJs do this abstraction via feeling(..Abstract feeling does the same with a content characterized by its feeling-values) and doing this abstraction mostly from Se(which is ruled so much by Te that its practically both of these together, Te inserted onto Se, which is the inferior for INTJ, thus when the INTJ is unable to instantly insert this Te logic into perception, he gets annoyed and impatient).

    i think this is the key here, but also interpretation of what INTJ says to INTP and vice versa is as important, but i cba to go into more depth with it now.

    what comes to this INTJ bashing, its just a response to what INTJs are doing. im not bashing on all INTJs(even tho i might say it in that manner to get to some individual INTJ), the bashing is situational and is done when needed. like with the case of uumlau in this topic, he was posting some ridiculous bullshit about how INTPs are incapable of understanding a light switch(or something close to that). or if you look at this zakahuruska(or what ever) guy, he is constantly bashing on INTPs, even did so in his last signature, now he just tries to bash on me in his signature(which is quite childish and pathetic, but at the same time quite amusing and i kinda feel honored that someone would dedicate his signature to emotions that he has towards me ). INTJs are constantly bashing on INTPs aswell, so me getting back at those people isnt something i should be accused from. its like someone hitting you in the face and if you hit back, you get sued, so i think its pointless to bring out the me bashing some INTJs.

    and what comes to my friend, i havent had issues on dealing with him in a while and i have learned to laugh at him when he is incapable of understanding something simple(or simple to me, INFP, ENTP and probably to 90% of people) rather than getting frustrated over it. this laughing at him seems to work much better, but i would rather explain things to people than make them feel bad, unluckily this doesent seem to work with him, but only leads to more misunderstanding and frustration. i dont have much issues with him very often anyways, its just that he makes a good example when INTJs here are making similar mistakes that he does at times(which is the reason for frustration at times on dealing with him), so i might point out those things more often that they actually happen. its more about INTJs here having similar brain farts often and there are multiple INTJs here..

    about this:
    "The INTPs are hung up on the right way of expressing something and the INTJ is focused on the gist of what is important."

    you see, INTPs are also focusing on what important and for INTPs right way of expressing something is important, because the essence of things cant be properly expressed without a book if words arent selected carefully just the right way. i know what you mean with the INTJ thing, but you see the gist of whats important, is important to the INTJ, not necessarily to the communication itself. i think the tendency for INTJs not to see this is what makes them usually suck at communication(maybe more so with talking than writing). i do agree with INTPs starting to ramble at times and thus lose this precision in language as thought gets derailed to other things related to the core issue, which might seem as irrelevant to people(if its not accompanied with more what seems to be pointless rambling to some), this happens especially if the INTP gets all excited about something and thus losing the focus.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    this INTJs often not understanding what im saying happens all the time, i think its exactly because of that precision thing you mentioned. like i mentioned, those core issues(/reasons) tend to be complicated, especially in the mind of an INTP. so in order to communicate them to others, they need to be abstracted ALOT and the abstraction is done by thinking(Abstract thinking(Ti) singles out the rational, logical qualities of a given content from its intellectually irrelevant components. - jung) and doing the abstraction from mostly Ne(which is influenced by Fe on determining what connections are worth thinking, but naturally since Fe is inferior its not doing its job too well most the time). while INTJs do this abstraction via feeling(..Abstract feeling does the same with a content characterized by its feeling-values) and doing this abstraction mostly from Se(which is ruled so much by Te that its practically both of these together, Te inserted onto Se, which is the inferior for INTJ, thus when the INTJ is unable to instantly insert this Te logic into perception, he gets annoyed and impatient).
    It's amazing (and telling) how you didn't even make mention of Ni.

    To get to the core of the issue: you regularly misunderstand how INTJ cognition works, and this is one more crystal clear example of how this is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    what comes to this INTJ bashing, its just a response to what INTJs are doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    like with the case of uumlau in this topic, he was posting some ridiculous bullshit about how INTPs are incapable of understanding a light switch(or something close to that).
    I wish you understood how comical it is that, while complaining about how INTJs misunderstand you, you make a ridiculous accusation against an INTJ for something he wrote that you clearly did not understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie
    It wouldn't be an INTP post if he didn't embarrass himself. I really wish he'd change his name.
    When other members of your own type say this about you and are embarrassed you have the username that you do (and he's not the only one I've heard this from), you should really stop and consider what you're doing wrong.

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It's amazing (and telling) how you didn't even make mention of Ni.

    To get to the core of the issue: you regularly misunderstand how INTJ cognition works, and this is one more crystal clear example of how this is the case.







    I wish you understood how comical it is that, while complaining about how INTJs misunderstand you, you make a ridiculous accusation against an INTJ for something he wrote that you clearly did not understand.



    When other members of your own type say this about you and are embarrassed you have the username that you do (and he's not the only one I've heard this from), you should really stop and consider what you're doing wrong.
    only cry cuz crappeur :-------DDDD
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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