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Thread: Signs of Ni

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    INTJs interrupt you because they are impatient and want you to get to the point.
    i know, thats basically what i said, what i said was the reason/cause for this(impatience is another reason). you see the reason is whats the core issue(or the reasons reason..), saying that something is, is the thing i was talking about earlier being the superficial level of things(S).

    this not seeing something as relevant is what causes the impatience in some situation, this impatience then manifests in not listening anymore or interrupting.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I must say that I completely disagree with almost your entire post. First, you rely entirely too much on logic. It's your cognitive bias and you don't seem to understand the limitations of it. With respect to getting to the "core" of things - INTJs are all about the core issues. They constantly search for them. It's what they do. Understand the largest possible big picture, distilling a large number of data points about it and then generate insights based on that. I have absolutely no idea how you can justify such nonsense - bad job on core issues? It's laughable.
    first sentence combined with next, is a logical fallacy. if i rely too much on logic and my logic is biased, then its not logic that im relying on, its feeling that im relying on(which is just masked as logic), because this letting feelings guide your thinking is what bias is. its funny that next you claim that INTJs are all about core issue, but you just made a mistake in looking at the core issue(exactly the type of what i have been saying that INTJs do all the time, but all INTJs saying that it doesent happen).

    also i find it pointless to tell people that their thinking is biased, unless you point out the bias. it makes you look like you are just projecting or making some irrational F judgments(not saying that you are, just saying that it makes you look like you are).


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    From a practical standpoint, I work with a lot of INTPs and find that they bring a perspective that I do not. They can be more flexible in their thinking than I am on the fly. They can be more facilitative. They bring up important things to consider and options. Are they as effective as getting to the heart of the matter and making a choice on actions? Generally no. I don't see it so often because they have such a difficult time making up their minds. It also can be frustrating because I feel like sometimes they are not actively listening. That is, they don't acknowledge the points of others who are communicating.
    ok. and to that last sentence, quite often i dont react to what other people are talking about, especially if i dont care about it much, am tired, etc. that doesent mean that im not listening to, also im pretty good at doing other things and listening at the same time, but not good at reacting to what people are saying while im doing other stuff. actually the INTJs i have seen are pretty much the same with this. it doesent mean that im not listening and i dont need to put off other stuff while listening to most stuff people tell me.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    So much gobbledegook. I know INTPs understand detail and complexity very well but you get into too much detail when you explain things. Sometimes the thing that is the most profound is the thing that is communicated most concisely.
    core issues are rarely simple and complicated things cannot be communicated concisely unless you leave stuff out, therefore in order to see the core issue in all its beauty(and not just look at it superficially), you need to go into details, alot, especially if its something as complex as human cognition. this raises another issue, usually with INTJs, when i do leave things out that i dont see as relevant enough to write several walls of text about(that they complain about), i get accused of having bias or they see me thinking that INTJs suck balls(if i tell how INTJ is bad at something and INTP is better at it and not tell all the great things about INTJs also). this makes it really frustrating communicating with INTJs often, they dont want walls of detailed text, so when you dont give them detailed walls of text, they draw false conclusions and accuse you of crap that they are doing themselves. makes no sense..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i know, thats basically what i said, what i said was the reason/cause for this(impatience is another reason). you see the reason is whats the core issue(or the reasons reason..), saying that something is, is the thing i was talking about earlier being the superficial level of things(S).

    this not seeing something as relevant is what causes the impatience in some situation, this impatience then manifests in not listening anymore or interrupting.



    first sentence combined with next, is a logical fallacy. if i rely too much on logic and my logic is biased, then its not logic that im relying on, its feeling that im relying on(which is just masked as logic), because this letting feelings guide your thinking is what bias is. its funny that next you claim that INTJs are all about core issue, but you just made a mistake in looking at the core issue(exactly the type of what i have been saying that INTJs do all the time, but all INTJs saying that it doesent happen).

    also i find it pointless to tell people that their thinking is biased, unless you point out the bias. it makes you look like you are just projecting or making some irrational F judgments(not saying that you are, just saying that it makes you look like you are).




    ok. and to that last sentence, quite often i dont react to what other people are talking about, especially if i dont care about it much, am tired, etc. that doesent mean that im not listening to, also im pretty good at doing other things and listening at the same time, but not good at reacting to what people are saying while im doing other stuff. actually the INTJs i have seen are pretty much the same with this. it doesent mean that im not listening and i dont need to put off other stuff while listening to most stuff people tell me.




    core issues are rarely simple and complicated things cannot be communicated concisely unless you leave stuff out, therefore in order to see the core issue in all its beauty(and not just look at it superficially), you need to go into details, alot, especially if its something as complex as human cognition. this raises another issue, usually with INTJs, when i do leave things out that i dont see as relevant enough to write several walls of text about(that they complain about), i get accused of having bias or they see me thinking that INTJs suck balls(if i tell how INTJ is bad at something and INTP is better at it and not tell all the great things about INTJs also). this makes it really frustrating communicating with INTJs often, they dont want walls of detailed text, so when you dont give them detailed walls of text, they draw false conclusions and accuse you of crap that they are doing themselves. makes no sense..
    There is no such thing as biased logic.

    There is true logic -

    And there is false logic.

    You seem to be ranting.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Actually, this is a good example of getting to the core issue.
    i said this few pages ago when this defining core issue was being discussed;

    "I cba to explain how rain is formed, but the mechanics on how clouds start pouring enough water for it to drop on the ground is the deeper(non superficial) reality"

    only responses from the INTJs were like "lol u biased blabla bla". its funny how you guys talk about how things should be, when infact things has been already like that and you didnt like it or didnt see it due to inferior Se(what i said to zarahuska earlier about, which he ofc rejected and proved my point again after that).
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    Quote Originally Posted by exact View Post
    There is no such thing as biased logic.

    There is true logic -

    And there is false logic.

    You seem to be ranting.
    why did you post this reply?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    why did you post this reply?
    Because your post is confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exact View Post
    Because your post is confusing.
    okay, it just kinda looked like you were ranting about me ranting, which would had been quite hilarious

    anyways, it might be less confusing if you read this topic some pages back
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    okay, it just kinda looked like you were ranting about me ranting, which would had been quite hilarious

    anyways, it might be less confusing if you read this topic some pages back
    Its all Greek to me.

    It also has an excessive focus on whether other people are right or wrong rather than what people might think Ni represents.

    Which is a bit silly since no group has been able to agree exactly what Ni is.

    If no group has been able to agree on what it is in this time frame then we are unlikely to find consensus right now.

    No functions were harmed in the making of this post.
    Last edited by exact; 04-09-2012 at 11:59 AM. Reason: More words were required to correctly specify the specifications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exact View Post
    Its all Greek to me.
    http://translate.google.com/
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    It wouldn't be an INTP post if he didn't embarrass himself. I really wish he'd change his name.
    .

  10. #270
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    Late to the party....but I'll post anyway.

    From an outside view:

    Ni-dom spin perspectives a lot. Things become what they want it to become. Sometimes its insightful & illuminates a better way to interpret reality, but other times it's disturbingly delusional & extremely self-serving (ie. taking no responsibility for bad behavior by justifying it via perspective shift).

    They don't tend to easily trust other's ideas. From a Fi-dom perspective, I don't easily adopt others' valuations & there's like a knee-jerk reaction to keep them uncorrupted from external things. It's a similar thing (to me) with Ni-dom, except it's ideas/perspectives/interpretations. This often comes off as unfairly dismissive to others' ideas or as having tunnel vision. Yet, unlike a Ji-dom, there is little association of the idea with themselves, which is where the arrogant vibe many get from them comes into play. It's as if they just see their interpretation or idea as reality.

    Like most introverted functions, Ni tends to come off negatively like 99% of the time, except the few moments when it manages to have a unique insight or idea that is actually valuable & not just deluded stubbornness.

    I personally associate heavy metaphor, idea spewing, perspective exploring, etc, with Ne. When all this is really visible, IMO, then you're dealing with an NP. Paradoxical expressions & allegorical stories seem more common with NJs. It's a lot more indirect or cryptic. As with most Ns, there's a fondness for any absurdity that expresses a truth, whereas sensing types just like to mock absurdities because they're absurd.

    On average, I don't find Ni-dom openly analytical though. There's almost a dismissal of it as "too obvious". Trying to engage an INJ in person in an intellectual discussion for its own sake doesn't seem to get anywhere. ISJs are easy in this way....they're especially easy to impress, or annoy enough to engage anyway. ENJs are easy too....they love to spout opinions, being J-dom. But INJs seem to just write this off as noise. They seem more interested in analyzing trends & how things will develop in the future, as well as what something currently happening means for the long run. It's waaaaaaaay less whimsical & playful than an NP. It has a practicality to it that would shame an SJ, but more big-picture & future-oriented. Often times it resembles paranoia, but at best, it's a good head start in preparing for what you need to be in order to deal with some pending reality or an interpretation that clarifies a formerly fuzzy idea of reality.

    As you can probably tell from this, Ni appears much narrower than Ne to me, but I suppose its deeper. Ne wants to play with all the patterns, all the contexts. Ne gorges itself on ideas & interpretations & perspectives. Ni seems to focus on likelihoods, but without discounting the unexpected - how the pattern is likely to shift, how the current context is likely to change into something else, what something really is at core, etc. Apparently, there are archetypes from the unconscious mind - a sort of innate library of how reality generally works in the most fundamental sense - that is sourcing these ideas, but I don't know about that end of it so much. I think introverts generally explore ideas of the unconscious via imagination, or at least, that's how I see it/experience it myself.

    Ni is associated with a meditative state of thinking, and I see this as observable in them. Ask them a question, and they pause in a way that looks like a meditative state. Again, many introverts do this, but the type of question can clue you into it. If it's an idea question, an NP gets 500 lightbulbs over their head, and again, you can witness this in their demeanor & often quick response. If that NP is a Ji-dom and you ask them something which requires a judgement, then you get a pause also, but it's less meditative (it's more like wheels churning, ideas being connected into something that makes sense, the connections being ordered & fit into a bigger idea, consistency of it all being tested, etc). Si-dom look like they're reviewing (the way your face looks when you scan a book for a previously read section) or comparing notes of the past to what is at hand.

    IMO, Ni seems very narrow, as it often discounts other likely possibilities to focus on developing one. The typical Ni-dom offers no explanation for their idea either. There is often no line of reasoning to back anything up. This is key to knowing you're dealing with a dominant perceiver. They just "see" things as they are (or as the interpret them subjectively), and they expect others to simply accept it as a fact, as if it's a concrete object in front of your face. When people don't, they pout like babies (INFJs) or dismiss everyone else as stupid (INTJs). This focus can be beneficial in weeding out useless paths others might explore, but it can also be detrimental when the person, unaware of their own bias, clings to an idea that is more flattering or beneficial to themselves, not necessarily more REAL or more accurate of an interpretation.

    They also seek to regulate reality to their ideas, whether passively (sometimes even unaware of it themselves; ie. self-fulfilling prophecies) or intentionally. The intentional method can amount to only exposing themselves to realities which align with their views; so they deny those which don't, or cause actual change to make it fit their view, or they simply put a strange spin on it to make it align. This can range from actual situations to factual knowledge. The passive method seems to be acting or provoking others to act so as to indirectly affect events, and then what they expected actually happens. Obviously, there's some Je going on here too, especially when they act in some way. They often don't see their own hand in it though, which to me, as a Fi-dom, comes across as disturbingly void of personal responsibility.

    They know a lot more about you than you've told them or that anything tangible could communicate, but they still don't know as much as they think they do. This can be problematic when their idea of you & who you really are conflict. They project stuff onto you a lot - you become some symbol to them of something (in romance, you're often the essence of womanhood or whatever), and all of its associations then become equated with you. It seems like they seek to sum people up quickly, but the healthier ones will take unexpected aspects more in stride & even be amused/entertained by it.

    Every now & then, life blind sides them & it hits them harder than most, because they're not used to it, I guess.

    Since, we're INTP bashing , I will say that INTJs are easier to converse with when it comes to accepting other people's opinions. You can make a statement & they'll accept the main point without interrogating you over every detail. It's so exhausting to talk with an INTP & have to prove every word choice as accurate. They drive me nuts! On the other hand, the sad little masochist that lives within me (and every Fi-dom) likes being driven a bit nuts sometimes, so INTPs can be more fun in that way. When they disagree, INTJs just smirk or something, and I'd rather have someone just argue with me & give me an opportunity to explain myself thoroughly.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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