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Thread: Signs of Ni

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Which solution style is better? It comes down to which model of reality is more apt, and how well the specific individual is paying attention to it, AND how well the individual understands the flaws of one's particular approach and adapt for them.
    Which style is better comes down to situation. Because if the solution is better handled by INTP style then an INTJ must adapt to that style and vice-versa, therefore for each solution there may be a better style. I see INTJs trying to adapt the problem though to there style...hence changing the problem space as opposed to adapting to the problem. Are you trying to switch the "problem space"? Where INTPs struggle would be if that cant see the problem because they dont change problem spaces normally as they focus on the "real" problem(this is dependent on there perception and the problem space will only change as more information is unraveled which leads to a deeper issue). Personally at this point I see both temporary solution as well as work arounds and the "solution" base becomes very "how would you like to go about things" based where it based off of pros and cons of each and sometimes multiple phases taking into account each solution are required.

    edit: I switch problem spaces knowingly and conciously as a means of avoidance.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Both types have blind spots, which the other sees as superficial. Ni-Te in operation can look superficial, but it isn't. Ti-Ne in operation can look flaky, but it isn't.
    I suppose there's such a thing as INTJ nitpicking as well, cuz I'm about to do it (but it's probably different, if you examine it).

    First, I would put "necessarily" after each of those "not"'s, as either could be superficial or flaky, they're just not inherently so.

    Second, flaky? Interesting choice... I don't think it's what I would have gone with, but I'm not sure what I would have gone with, and I think I see where you're actually pointing... it's that, in the words you later use, INTJs often see the INTPs as not adjusting to the current set of circumstances that matter, right? See, I guess that's where I wonder whether "flaky" is the best choice (it still does point to some aspect of it, though... ), as that seems more of an Si problem to me, not Ne (which is where flakiness would seem to better fit), and seems more to have to do with stodginess, or being stuck in a certain mindset or way of looking at things, and not adjusting to the current reality and how it ought to affect the way in which you're approaching the problem.

    Interesting construction nonetheless.

    I like where this is going.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    More specifically, Ni-Te is habitually paying attention to externalities that INTPs tend to (but not always) ignore. Those boundary conditions can change on the fly, which not only changes the set of potential solutions to a problem, but also determines which questions are the right questions to ask. But Ni-Te, in so doing, is somewhat stuck to those externalities, while Ti-Ne is quite capable of covering large classes of general possibilities. So INTPs will see the INTJ solution as correct, insofar as it goes, but it's incomplete, it doesn't take into account all the other possibilities. But the INTPs usually don't see how a mild change of boundary conditions can totally alter the problem space. Ni is always changing problem spaces, trying to figure out the right question to ask. INTPs (and this is more Si-based) tend to stay in a single (very well defined) problem space.

    In short, INTJs tend toward solutions that correlate very well with (the currently know version of) reality, and is habitually trying to stay current with reality (Se, Te). This can result in inconsistent and ad-hoc solutions, especially if one isn't paying close attention. ITNPs tend toward solutions that correlate very well with a more generalized perception of reality (Ne, Si), and as such those solutions tend to be self-consistent with each other. This can result in solutions that are generally applicable, but don't really fit with a particular current state of affairs.

    Which solution style is better? It comes down to which model of reality is more apt, and how well the specific individual is paying attention to it, AND how well the individual understands the flaws of one's particular approach and adapt for them.
    +1

    This really hits the nail on the head.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    If the light is on then the switch does not turn the light on. Therefore that is not a universal truth in all situations. The switch turns the light on or off is more true. I still think its anal when the situation is so obvious as a light switch that the whole argument is just considered anal retentive. The INTP is more stuck on teaching universal truths based on whats said instead of what the other person understands. At the end of the day its all a matter of how far pulled into or out of the situation you are.

    The thing is that an INTJ may disregard what was said as important and not even pay attention...hence not learn something outside of the current situation. While the INTP may not realize INTJs know everything that the INTP said and just sees them as anal retentive because there really is no reason as its already known and understood and at this point the arguing is over wording not understanding.
    This was actually pretty good, too, Poki.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I think rigging is an ISTP thing (or maybe SP). Whatever is good enough to move on.

    What it has to do with ni I don't know. A little situational Ni maybe, with Se taking priority. Does Ni always have to deal with prognosticating and longterm goals?
    Rigging with me is a choice based on current circumstance/situation and not really consistant enough to say its an ISTP thing. I prefer longer term solutions because I dont feel like dealing with the after affects of short term solutions, but again which route I take is completely situationally dependent...hacks can stress me out because I know I cant move on and will have to come back to it...I have a really strong sense of ownership.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #165
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This was actually pretty good, too, Poki.
    Of course, all INTP bashing is good, isn't it, z.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    INTJs tend to be really selective with paying attention to external realities, if they cant instantly see the relevance of something, they judge it as irrelevant and wont pay any attention to it. This can speed up the process, but if this ignored thing has more fundamental and not so obvious relevance, it can lead to big mistakes. What makes this worse, is that if the theory is built on ignoring something significant(something that would wreck the theory), its hard to go back and change the whole theory because of one consistency, especially since it already makes sense(due to ignoring this important thing) and adding this thing to the theory would make the current theory to not make sense -> adding it doesent make sense. INTJs are afterall building an Ni image from the singular(but multiple) Te things.

    INTJ analysis goes from defining what something is based on external realities(Te) and combining these definitions by abstracting them(removing what isnt seen as necessary) in order to figure out the relationships between these things to form an big picture view of the things seen as being connected.
    INTPs on the other hand perceive the big picture and connections between things in the external world and figuring out what it is that connects these things to understand the big picture in deep level. Naturally there can be mistakes with this approach also, but its usually about missing something in the external world big picture. While looking for what it is that connects these things there is an abstraction process going on and connections that doesent make logical sense are reviewed extra carefully and disgarded if it makes more logical sense for the big picture(and the combining unknown factor, which is being analyzed).

    I dont agree with this at all. For INTP the problem space is different to INTJ. For INTP the solution may be something outside the problem space, while INTJ tends to look solution only from the problem. So there is no need to change the problem space in order to find an solution outside of it or to switch the problem spaces. You need to remember that INTJs perceive external world via Se, while INTPs use Ne for that.

    This currently known version of reality is the key here. INTPs only accept one version of reality, but this version of reality is unknown. INTJs on the other hand claim to know the reality, even tho its just their version of the reality, not the real reality. Reality doesent change, only the perception of it does. The perception of reality isnt same as the reality, even tho INTJs see it as so and make the judgments(and the big picture based on them) based on the perception of reality and see it as the real reality. This is why INTJ approach seems ridiculously superficial to INTP. This superficial reality really is the perception of what is and analysis what it is(in other words SeTe), INTPs can instantly see that this isnt the reality if it doesent make logical sense compared to the core issue seen by NeTi. However, when it does, its most likely something the INTP didnt think before, at least from that perspective and can be useful.
    There are about two worthwhile (read: not tainted by cognitive bias) things you said in this entire post.

    The rest is thoroughly tainted by cognitively-biased bullshit.

    If you respond to someone like uumlau, who takes great care to try and not let cognitive bias slip into his writing, and thus expresses himself in a highly cognitive-bias neutral manner, with this kind of highly cognitively-biased bullshit, you detract from the discussion, and make yourself look really immature, petty, and stupid.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Of course, all INTP bashing is good, isn't it, z.
    He wasn't INTP bashing.

    He actually contradicted what an INTJ said, by providing a fuller Ti perspective.

    And, aside from that, it was good because he offered a rather fair appraisal of the situation.

    But you do make yourself look really foolish by not realizing that that's the reason I said those things.

    Of all the things you could point to, for that to be where you "call me out" on INTP bashing is hilarious/absurd.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    He wasn't INTP bashing.

    He actually contradicted what an INTJ said, by providing a fuller Ti perspective.

    And, aside from that, it was good because he offered a very fair appraisal of the situation.

    But you do make yourself look really foolish by not realizing that that's the reason I said those things.

    Of all the things you could point to, for that to be where you "call me out" on INTP bashing is hilarious/absurd.
    That's just your cognitive bias speaking.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Of course, all INTP bashing is good, isn't it, z.
    I dont see how what I wrote is bashing.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That's just your cognitive bias speaking.
    No, it's not really.

    Well, in one sense it is.

    It is me being objective (TeSe).

    I'm sorry you have such difficulty in that regard.

    ETA: Interestingly, though, what you're trying here is probably what I was pointing to with "Fe-shaming".

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