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Thread: Signs of Ni

  1. #111
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Why is it when there is a discussion comparing INTJs to INTPs, with several civil posts from both INTJs and INTPs, invariably, it seems that someone will post something like, "Oh, yeah? Well, I know an INTJ in real life, and he's just a pretentious jerk." Yours isn't the only one: check out the whole thread.

    Such points beg the question, and come across as remarkably self-serving. We don't know whether the real life person is really an INTJ, whether he was actually correct/incorrect about something, whether the poster misinterpreted what he said, or whether the poster's assessment of his emotional state (e.g., "pissy", "arrogant") is an accurate synopsis. We only have the poster's assertions of such, and no, we can't use Google to fact check such anecdotes.


    "Any rationalization ..." Do you seriously believe that your singular example, which may or may not be accurate, applies to all INTJs as a class?

    I was talking with a wonderful young woman last night, who turned out to be an INTJ. She was charming and gracious, and I'd definitely picked up the Ni vibe and typed her as a likely INFJ. I broached the topic with her and she replied that she was an INTJ. I asked whether there was any doubt on the F/T? "Hell no!" she replied.

    So, should I generalize from this anecdotal evidence that all INTJs are lovely, charming and gracious?


    You might want to take a peek in the cognitive mirror, so to speak.
    It looks like you're doing a great job of proving my points.

    I noticed you didn't say anything about my ISTJ story. Is that because ISTJ bashing is acceptable practice, as is nitpicking about INTP nitpicking, but INTJ bashing is not acceptable?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #112
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So, should I generalize from this anecdotal evidence that all INTJs are lovely, charming and gracious?
    Yes, but not very many people are lovely, charming and gracious 24/7/365. After a few years I can see the chinks in the personality begin to shine forth more clearly. That's true of any type. The INTJs I know are very polite and easy-going. But then, sometimes, they can go cold as ice, either from being very focused or very angry. With some, anger is translated straight into a kind of glumness or depression, which prevents them from becoming aware of it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #113
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    Thousand-yard stare and leading you towards predetermined ideas. Ni pulls.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    uumlau I mostly agree on your analysis. The thing is that both sides measure success in different ways. Yes, if I want to simply get something done I will probably approach a TJ, preferably an NTJ and ask for their input. They have a very refreshing and efficient way of cutting things down to the core essentials and the most likely outcome.
    I kinda disagree with this cutting things down to core essentials. INTJs seem to do a horrible job at this(have noticed it in real life and on these forums), while for INTPs the core essentials is all that matters.
    I do agree that INTJs try to see the core issue of things, but they approach it by looking at things at very superficial Te level and make Ni assumptions about the core issue from those surface level truths. This sort of approach is doomed to fail in reaching the core issue, even tho it might lead to assumptions that work, but only work at very superficial level. Naturally for INTJ it seems like they really understood the core issue, because it works on this superficial level, which is all they care about.
    INTPs on the other hand doesent tend to really care about this superficial level, but dig deep by looking at the issue from all angles and using logic to get to the core issue(opposed to seeing what makes logical sense about what is and making what ever logical or not assumptions about how these things fit together).
    This difference is really what causes most disagreements between INTJs and INTPs. INTPs looking at the core issue and because digging deep enough and because of that being able to apply these fundamentals to other things aswell seems untrusted and uncomprehensive to INTJ, because they make assumptions about the core issue based on superficial Te logic and cant see how INTP applies these core issues to other things aswell.

    Uumlau has shown this many times on this topic(and in other topics aswell) by making totally false assumptions about INTPs. Like this INTPs being so focused on perceived logical consistency that they stop listening and therefore interrupt. While in reality its not that we arent listening and are only focused on logic, its just that we ALSO focus on logic and are quick to see if what the other person is making illogical statements(or it just seems like it because the other person is leaving something essential out), so we ask for clarification in order to see the logic in what the other person says. And if there is no logic in what the other person talks about(assuming we are discussing about something where it matters, like science), its better that the other person realizes the logical mistake instead of talking bullshit for an hour, because if there is one fundamental mistake in logic, there is usually more than that one coming. Now lets assume that someone talks about how fairies used to rule the earth 10 years ago, and ill let him talk for an hour and at that time notice 43 logical mistakes. In order to point out these mistakes in logic, i would have to write them all down, so that i would be able to point them out and explain them later.
    Also in my experience INTJs are way worse at interrupting and whats worse, INTJs interrupt because they dont see something as relevant and dont give a chance for me to explain what it has to do with it..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dario Nardi, The Neuroscience of Personality View Post
    Introverted Thinking (Ti)

    Ti types:

    Least interested in listening.

    INTPs are likely to quickly stop listening as they assess the relevance of what others are saying.
    .

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    This might sound a bit redundant, but what I am trying to say is that the qualities of Te best serve to reach the goals Te usually strives for and the qualities of Ti best serve the goals Ti strives for. So if a Te user tells me that something is of no practical use, I can only answer "so what? there are more important things in life than something as profane as practical use!" And they might shake their heads at me in disbelief. And if I criticize a hole in a system of theirs and they answer: "so what? - it works!" I can only shake my head in disbelief at such disregard for "Truth" and elegance

    So what you criticize as a weakness of the INTP is a weakness if you look a it with the eyes of an INTJ - focused on efficiency and outcome - and vice versa, the weakness of the INTJ - closed to detail and alternatives - is a weakness in the eyes of an INTP...you might say that weakness lies in the eye of the beholder and depends on that person's own criteria and goals.
    Most of this is fine and well and true and I agree, but apparently you missed a large portion of what uumlau stated. Plenty of the things he mentioned are actual failures by INTPs: 1) to recognize what is relevant for a particular moment -- not just in their minds, but what the situation actually calls for (i.e., in your examples: at work, or in engineering); 2) for misinterpreting what INTJs say by bringing in all kinds of considerations that have little or nothing to do with what an INTJ is intending to express; 3) for tending to stop listening when what they deem important (the consistency/beauty of the idea) is "violated"; and 4) for attempting to use Fe judgments/"shame" methods on TJs for stating objective Te truths, because Te rubs their cognitive preferences the wrong way. He likewise mentioned weakness/failures of INTJs, which are true, and I/we have no problem owning up to those. Better to recognize the common idiocies of your type and deal with them than to just try and deny them. Indeed, some of your kin in this thread are in need of a healthy dose of that (but, of course, those who are in most need of it are the ones who don't realize it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Also, there IS a whole lot of INTP bashing going on here, but it is mostly coming from one particular member - I am looking at you, Zoroaster - and is so OTT that I prefer to assume he is trolling.
    Hey, I can't help that you guys are so easy to (accurately) pick on.

    Just look at the village idiots that have come swarming in.

    You know as well as I do that they prove my point.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Most of this is fine and well and true and I agree, but apparently you missed a large portion of what uumlau stated. Plenty of the things he mentioned are actual failures by INTPs: 1) to recognize what is relevant for a particular moment -- not just in their minds, but what the situation actually calls for (i.e., in your examples: at work, or in engineering); 2) for misinterpreting what INTJs say by bringing in all kinds of considerations that have little or nothing to do with what an INTJ is intending to express; 3) for tending to stop listening when what they deem important (the consistency/beauty of the idea) is "violated"; and 4) for attempting to use Fe judgments/"shame" methods on TJs for stating objective Te truths, because Te rubs their cognitive preferences the wrong way. He likewise mentioned weakness/failures of INTJs, which are true, and I/we have no problem owning up to those. Better to recognize the common idiocies of your type and deal with them than to just try and deny them. Indeed, some of your kin in this thread are in need of a healthy dose of that (but, of course, those who are in most need of it are the ones who don't realize it)..
    I did not "miss" that part, I just decided not to focus in it.

    What made you assume that I missed that part? I decided to focus on something else because it seemed more interesting and more relevant to me and because I have doubts whether these points are true. Not because I didn't listen or shut myself off to the possibility that they might be true. As a good P I take in all the information I can, even if I decide to focus on something else instead. Maybe situations like this creates that assumption that INTPs don't listen.

    But if you insist:
    1) I think I did covered that one (zon ing in on what needs to be done, more focused on relevence/efficiency)
    2) It looks like misinterpreting to the INTJ who is so focused on hios one solution, but for us it is merely bringing in the wider context which to us is just as relevent
    3) I have not observed that behavior in myself or other INTPs IRL or here, not more than in other types, and as I said, a good P takes in information like a sponge
    4) I never observed that Fe shaming method. What does happen is that sometimes an NTJ is so abrasive and overconfident that inferior Fe shales its head and assumes that this must be Fi at play, or Ni + Fi which seems to translate as "I am right, I just know it, just trust me on this one and screw the rest of you" - we can not imagine how somebody could be so overconfident because improvisation and remaining doubts are parts of the Ti-Ne version of intellectual integrity. At least that's how I perceive it and how I have heard other NTPs describe it.

    What makes you think that I do not see the INTPs weaknesses just because I did not immediately adress all of these points directly? We have loads of weaknesses like any other type. But with your premature assumptions you just illustrated that much of what you accuse NTPs of applies to you guys as well if not more
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    I wish the :zzz: emoticon still worked...


  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I wish the :zzz: emoticon still worked...

    So I see you ARE listening.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    So I see you ARE listening.
    I said from the get-go that I agreed with most of what you said.

    It was the last part where you went wrong.

    That is why I said apparently you missed it.

    I used "apparently", specifically, as a semi-qualifier.

    For someone who just posted about their fantastic use of qualifiers, you seem to not get them too well when you read them.

    At first, I figured answering your post would just be uninteresting -- exactly what had prompted me to address it that way had escaped me.

    Then I reread what you'd written and recalled why I did.

    Response pending. (well... unless I get bored with it.)

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