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Thread: Fi analysis

  1. #11
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Introverted Judgment functions are concerned primarily with the subject and not the object. (Primacy of subject over object is the very core of Introversion) Fi will want to impose structure on itself, yet could care less to impose it on you. An Introvert will have no interest in having you share their beliefs as his views do not require external approval for legitimation, the deciding factor inheres within his thoughts and not public consensus.
    I know that to be the case... my question is, why is it that technically, I know this, and yet it always feels the way I described? It's like my feelings are usually right when it comes to dealing with J's, and usually wrong when it comes to dealing with P's, particularly FP's. It seems like their feelings are often wrong when it comes to me as well, actually... almost as if there were visceral, mutual distrust of one another's motives.

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    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I know that to be the case... my question is, why is it that technically, I know this, and yet it always feels the way I described? It's like my feelings are usually right when it comes to dealing with J's, and usually wrong when it comes to dealing with P's, particularly FP's. It seems like their feelings are often wrong when it comes to me as well, actually... almost as if there were visceral, mutual distrust of one another's motives.
    We have difficulty understanding people who are different from us, as naturally its easy for us to empathize with things that are close to home and difficult with things distant from us.
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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    For INFJ, Fi is in the shadow, so it would basically rub you the wrong way like that; and to people with primary Fi, your Fe is in their shadow.

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    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I know that to be the case... my question is, why is it that technically, I know this, and yet it always feels the way I described? It's like my feelings are usually right when it comes to dealing with J's, and usually wrong when it comes to dealing with P's, particularly FP's. It seems like their feelings are often wrong when it comes to me as well, actually... almost as if there were visceral, mutual distrust of one another's motives.
    Due to the externalized nature of my Fe judgement, I look to my external environment for clues about expectations that I then use in self-assessment decisions. I often receive strongly stated expression of Fi as threat, feeling a defensive reaction to the perceived potential of being judged deficient in some way.

    It helps me to remember that any expressions of judgement are ultimately only statements of what an individual personally values even if expressed as a global moral judgement. I think it helps respectful communication if judgements are framed carefully to reflect that nature, but I have found I can take responsibility for my own experience by choosing to hear the expression as a personal value statement no matter its original form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Although I'd like to note that Fi and Ti feel very different to me as an INFJ. Ti seems fairly harmless (to everyone except its user, anyway) and even useful, while Fi feels like someone is trying to (unfairly) impose an arbitrary structure on me while appearing open-minded. Note that I'm not saying it is arbitrary/unfair, and I acknowledge that it probably isn't. But that's how it feels to me when another person uses it. Can you take any guesses as to why that is?

    I tend to find both strong Fe and strong Te as somewhat threatening, an attempt to extert control and comformity.

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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    We have difficulty understanding people who are different from us, as naturally its easy for us to empathize with things that are close to home and difficult with things distant from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    For INFJ, Fi is in the shadow, so it would basically rub you the wrong way like that; and to people with primary Fi, your Fe is in their shadow.
    Quote Originally Posted by heart
    I tend to find both strong Fe and strong Te as somewhat threatening, an attempt to exert control and conformity.

    Yeah, I guess that's the case. I was hoping you'd know if something should be done about it, but it could just be our mutual natures...

    It just comes down to this where FJ's and FP's are concerned, I suppose. (With each of us seeing the other as shadowed one).

    Jung's "Shadow" metaphor is more easily seen than explained...

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    5 star thread. Nice.

    Values vs ideas, Mempy: The T process looks for answers (ideas) that seem applicable to appropriate situations, without personal choice involved. But sometimes the subject has no "right answer" (i.e., T looks and sees a myriad of options), and so instead of deriving an answer based on the world and the system one is immersed in, one uses oneself as a reference point and figures out what CHOICE is "right."

    So many times I would get confuddled because I'd try to figure out the "right answer" where there was none. At that point, one makes a decision based on the things one considers important, or that one feels accurately most represents oneself.

    The initial list from the columnist seemed to me to be Ji questions but based on or flavored by Ni and Ne intuitions. There's no good way to separate them; you have to use two functions (a P function and a J function) in order to explore and reach conclusions about the situation. These are all sorts of questions I would ask myself as part of taking all the factors under consideration, but I guess I see T to be able to make a judgment without the assertion of the self (except as a vehicle to apply the "impersonal rules of nature"), whereas F decisions can only be reached BY asserting the volition of the self.

    I remember for large portions of my life pushing down my own needs and wants until I wasn't even sure what they were anymore, and instead relying solely upon the "logical solution." If I had to assert myself upon the problem, then I was now ruining the results and the answer was no longer pure. I would rather have left things open... despite the discomfort... so that I could justify my choice.

    (I don't think Fi can really justify its choices to others as easily as Ti can, because again it involves personal volition and a choice of what to value; such things can only be explained/shared, but never proven to someone else.)

    A lot of recent decisions in my life have been based on a mix of Ti and Fi, I think. Ti dealt with, "Well, you have tried all the options you have, like it or not the only logical conclusion is that you need to change things, and drastically, if you want to survive." And Ti guides me in terms of understanding how to deal with my family and life and people, it gives me the parameters of how the "system works" -- so I can tailor my choices to something appropriate.

    But the Fi kicks in at some point and chooses the specific implementation of my choices, based on what best reflects me and what I sense I want and need, and what others want and need. I choose what I want to value and prioritize, and emphasize those things.

    ... rambling, getting lost. does any of that contribute to this?

    I guess I do also have to add that there is overlap. I try to do what is best for my kids because I have chosen to value them; at the same time, Ti tells me how children work and what path is best for emotional/mental health, so my decisions are based on those things as well.

    Or maybe you can look at it like this:

    Someone prioritizing feeling could look at a situation with Ti and see the "best way for it to work" but they could choose something they knew would not create the most efficient/practical outcome, because they did not value that outcome or valued another outcome more.

    Someone prioritizing thinking could look at a situation with Fi and see what they want and what they value and feel empathy with others... but still go ahead with what they think will bring the necessary outcome regardless of the cost to oneself or others.

    it's still tricky. Thinking people are Thinkers because they "value" thinking, you know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The initial list from the columnist seemed to me to be Ji questions but based on or flavored by Ni and Ne intuitions.
    I agree. I see them as Ti/Fi questions (= Ji questions); and certainly at a minimum the columnist applied some Ne when brainstorming the list and/or Ni when rounding it out and making it comprehensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    These are all sorts of questions I would ask myself as part of taking all the factors under consideration, [...]
    So you Ti people would have generated the same rough list of questions geared toward self-knowledge and exploring the emotion; but you would have answered them differently from Fi people. (The columnist generates the questions but doesn't give any indication how they are to be answered.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    [...] but I guess I see T to be able to make a judgment without the assertion of the self (except as a vehicle to apply the "impersonal rules of nature"), whereas F decisions can only be reached BY asserting the volition of the self.
    As an Fi-Dominant, for much of my teens and twenties I was drowning in an emotional soup from one day to the next. As a young INFP male, outwardly reserved and at the same time wildly emotional on the inside, I had an urgent need to learn how to swim about in that emotional soup and get a handle on it. I would have happily chucked the whole emotional mess out the window; but even running away from society and playing the hermit didn't help--there was no getting away from that Fi and its focus on emotion.

    So those questions generated by the columnist were my life raft. In the end, posing and answering those questions on a regular basis (almost daily at some times) was the only thing that really ever helped me get a handle on how to emote in a competent manner. There was the world, my emotions, and me. To get all three to coexist and keep them from clashing constantly, I had to keep running through those same questions over and over. The emotions wouldn't stop, and I couldn't just "stuff" them, so I had to get to know them and master them.

    Am I "asserting myself" when I answer one of those questions and arrive at a value judgment? Yes, to some extent, of course.

    Usually I'm balancing the three parties that I described above: the world, my emotions, and me. The world is the "reality check" part of the equation and usually the origin of any given emotional situation; my current emotion is like a fire alarm going off in my ear and I have to deal with it somehow; and personal priorities generated by "me" are composed partly of values drawn from my environment as a child and partly of personal history--the internalized results of prior interactions between world, my emotions, and me. The history component of my personal values increases in size as I get older and I gain more practical application.

    The last item--"me" and my values--tends to rank high among the priorities, and it includes a big history component. So if someone asks why I hold a certain value dear, I may have to tell half my life's story to explain how that value was formed and tested over time. That's when it becomes easier to just say, "I'm an INFP, and that's just an Fi value with me."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    (I don't think Fi can really justify its choices to others as easily as Ti can, because again it involves personal volition and a choice of what to value; such things can only be explained/shared, but never proven to someone else.)
    It's true to say that Fi values can't really justify or prove themselves in a rigorous logical fashion.

    OTOH, I would just add what I've said elsewhere: Ti-based rationales aren't necessarily satisfying either. Ti-Dominants don't all use the same logic. Also, to the extent that they leave themselves out of the equation, Ti-Dominants can effectively leave themselves incompetent at dealing with real-world emotions/issues.

    Given the subject of the OP (dealing with an emotion), proofs and justifications may be a non-issue. Most people would probably rather hear about real-life application. Fi is more likely to satisfy in that respect, because the intertwining of "the world, my emotions, and me" tends to result in lots of first-hand real-world experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Someone prioritizing feeling could look at a situation with Ti and see the "best way for it to work" but they could choose something they knew would not create the most efficient/practical outcome, because they did not value that outcome or valued another outcome more.

    Someone prioritizing thinking could look at a situation with Fi and see what they want and what they value and feel empathy with others... but still go ahead with what they think will bring the necessary outcome regardless of the cost to oneself or others.
    If an individual has a good grasp of both Fi and Ti, the issue may largely become moot. It's like you said about the subject of raising your kids--you reach a point where there's a lot of overlap. Kids need logical structure in their lives and also to be valued and loved as individuals. So the parent gives them both--call it what you want.

  9. #19
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Across time I have been looking for a way to describe how Fi works internally. In past posts, I've described Fi as a process of self-definition. IOW, some event occurs in the outer world, and the Fi-Dominant person asks himself, "What *do* I feel about this? What *should* I feel about this? How does it affect me? Should I get involved and do something about it?"

    Initially I ask a lot of questions of myself; and then with time and experience I find answers to those questions; Fi is a "judging" function. As I find answers to my questions, I build up a personal ethical system that guides my actions. Once I have determined ("judged") how I feel about some situation, I'll know how to react to it in the future.

    And thus, over time, I build a framework of judgments and self-definitions that guide my actions and give me a sense that I'm grounded in something bigger and more permanent than mere action/reaction. As I grow older, life's events don't buffet me or torment me as they did when I was young; my past Fi "judgments" provide a compass and roadmap; I can choose to float above events and take a philosophical approach to life.
    this is fantastic. i think there is a really interesting analogy budding here. it's like legal PRECEDENT. creating an internal discourse, structure, body of laws and case histories that can be extrapolated via Ne to cover new situations with confidence, naturally, without suffering for "rightness," internal harmony, certainty, PURITY, etc.

    Fi being about analyzing ethical situations and arriving at situations that create the greatest "harmony" (as opposed to T, which deduces universal rules in order to achieve the greatest fairness)
    internal harmony. which feels the best. which is the least objectionable based on the way that i FEEL about the disparate parts of the problem/solution. which solutions that do not keep me up at night. do not make me feel sad for someone, something, somewhere. do not violate other ideals and principles/precepts i hold near and dear to my heart.

    i feel that for Fi, it is more about the successive history of the law. a law that unfolds internally (as discourse). your experiences, previous feelings, the feeling-tones of your impressions of different objects/entities, these do not easily get overturned or overruled. they are stored within the legal literature. you have to build outward/forward to a new balance and a new justice. Ti can undo shit easier, it can erase sentences and write new ones. more abstracted, indexed, explicitly stated. it is not stored in impressions, physical sensations and sinking feelings, suffering, distress, etc. it can reconfigure itself more easily, start out from scratch, begin anew. it can make hierarchical changes much much easier than Fi.

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    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    this is fantastic. i think there is a really interesting analogy budding here. it's like legal PRECEDENT. creating an internal discourse, structure, body of laws and case histories that can be extrapolated via Ne to cover new situations with confidence, naturally, without suffering for "rightness," internal harmony, certainty, PURITY, etc.



    internal harmony. which feels the best. which is the least objectionable based on the way that i FEEL about the disparate parts of the problem/solution. which solutions that do not keep me up at night. do not make me feel sad for someone, something, somewhere. do not violate other ideals and principles/precepts i hold near and dear to my heart.

    i feel that for Fi, it is more about the successive history of the law. a law that unfolds internally (as discourse). your experiences, previous feelings, the feeling-tones of your impressions of different objects/entities, these do not easily get overturned or overruled. they are stored within the legal literature. you have to build outward/forward to a new balance and a new justice. Ti can undo shit easier, it can erase sentences and write new ones. more abstracted, indexed, explicitly stated. it is not stored in impressions, physical sensations and sinking feelings, suffering, distress, etc. it can reconfigure itself more easily, start out from scratch, begin anew. it can make hierarchical changes much much easier than Fi.
    I like the analogy you've drawn between law and feeling decisions. Could you (or anyone else) perhaps give an example in your own experiences where you've made such decisions or solutions?
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