• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

jungian view on 8 function(beebean/lenorean) model

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
"Thinking that is governed by feeling I do not regard as intuitive thinking, but as a thinking dependant on feeling; it does not follow its own logical principle but is subordinated to the principle of feeling. In such thinking the laws of logic are only ostensibly present; in reality they are suspended in favour of the aims of feeling."
-Carl Jung [Psychological types, page 482]

For INTP, this would seem like Fi(8th function according to this), for ENTJ it would seem like Fe(8th), for INTJ it would seem like Fe(7th) and for ENTP it would seem like Fi(7th).

But its not 7th or 8th function, its just thinking unconsciously following feeling.

Same can happen with other functions:
"Fusion of psychological functions, of thinking with feeling, feeling with sensation, feeling with intuition, and so on, is archain."
(Psychological types page 413)

These functions, which are fused with other functions are undeveloped/undifferentiated.

"Differentation means the development of differences, the separation of parts from the whole. So as long as a function is still so fused with one or more other functions -thinking with feeling, feeling with sensation, etc- that it is unable to operate on its own, it is archain condition i.e., not differentiated, not separated from the whole as a special part and existing by itself.[my note, differentation isnt yes or no thing, but function can be more or less differentiated]. Without differentation direction is impossible, since the direction of a function towards a goal depends of elimination of anything irrelevant. Fusion with the irrelevant precludes direction; only a differentiated function is capable of being directed."
[Psychological types page 424]

As a conclusion, shadow functions arent your normal functions in opposite orientation, but any of the 4 function that is in archain condition, fused with other functions.
 

entropie

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
16,767
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
783
What about hybrids ? Why needs a function to be differentiated to develop a goal. Cant two functions bond together and make their own agenda ? Like a righteous zealot who kills infidels in the name of reason propelled by anger and hate ?!
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
What about hybrids ? Why needs a function to be differentiated to develop a goal. Cant two functions bond together and make their own agenda ? Like a righteous zealot who kills infidels in the name of reason propelled by anger and hate ?!

This hybrid you are talking about is the archain condition of functions, undifferentiated feeling guiding thinking. The point is that this reason the zealot has is not a reason coming from thinking, its not logical, its a feeling that has gone through some pseudo reasoning process, which isnt logical, but based purely on feelings, no matter how hard he tries to give a logical explanation for his actions.
Also with this example there is one thing coming to my mind immediately, this is really unhealthy(mentally) and childish behavior, what sort of person goes around killing other people?
 

entropie

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
16,767
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
783
This hybrid you are talking about is the archain condition of functions, undifferentiated feeling guiding thinking. The point is that this reason the zealot has is not a reason coming from thinking, its not logical, its a feeling that has gone through some pseudo reasoning process, which isnt logical, but based purely on feelings, no matter how hard he tries to give a logical explanation for his actions.
Also with this example there is one thing coming to my mind immediately, this is really unhealthy(mentally) and childish behavior, what sort of person goes around killing other people?

Someone with an undifferentiated reason.

So that means vice versa that someone who expresses an undifferentiated feeling was actually expressing a statement motivated by thinking and was not able to express a feeling. Conclusion from this is, there must be people who have no feelings and would without hormones be the epitome of robots right ?
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
Someone with an undifferentiated reason.

So that means vice versa that someone who expresses an undifferentiated feeling was actually expressing a statement motivated by thinking and was not able to express a feeling. Conclusion from this is, there must be people who have no feelings and would without hormones be the epitome of robots right ?

No. Undifferentiated functions merge with other functions, also different parts(judgments or perceptions) of the same function can merge with other parts of the same function.

Your example sounds like undifferentiated feeling leading thinking.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
The better way to view this "merger" of functions, is to think of four "natural" functions, S, N, T, F (e/i). They are usually in one or other orientation, but in this "arcane" (is that the word you were using?) condition, may swap the attitudes. The functions are eight things that mix, they're four perspectives, and the attitudes are applied to them, not fixed to them.
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
The better way to view this "merger" of functions, is to think of four "natural" functions, S, N, T, F (e/i). They are usually in one or other orientation, but in this "arcane" (is that the word you were using?) condition, may swap the attitudes. The functions are eight things that mix, they're four perspectives, and the attitudes are applied to them, not fixed to them.

Jung used the word archain. Its not about orientation changing, so thinking that the function changes orientation isnt a good way to think it. Its about undifferentiated function being in the lead of other function, other functions serving the needs of undifferentiated ones, because the undifferentiated one is unable to be consciously directed. If these two functions are in opposite attitudes, like dom Ti and inferior Fe, the Ti is trying to make introverted thinking judgments on things that serve the needs of extraverted feeling and is motivated by extraverted feeling. Its not that Fe turns to Fi, its just that Fe is replaced by Ti, thus looking like an introverted feeling judgment, when infact its introverted thinking judgment. Functions arent different perspectives, but different algorithms on judging and perception.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
This still binds the functions and attitudes together into solid "units".

If these two functions are in opposite attitudes, like dom Ti and inferior Fe, That means the ego's dominant orientation is intoverted, and thus the inferior is extraverted. the Ti is trying to make introverted thinking judgments on things that serve the needs of extraverted feeling and is motivated by extraverted feeling. Both Thinking and Feeling are involved in the process, and both the introverted and extraverted aspects of the situation may come into play. Its not that Fe turns to Fi, its just that Fe is replaced by Ti, thus looking like an introverted feeling judgment, when infact its introverted thinking judgment. It's neither a function "turning into" another, nor "replacing" another; they're both working together, and both orientations are involved.

Functions arent different perspectives, but different algorithms on judging and perception.
That's another way to put it. There's no conflict there.
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
This still binds the functions and attitudes together into solid "units".

If these two functions are in opposite attitudes, like dom Ti and inferior Fe, That means the ego's dominant orientation is intoverted, and thus the inferior is extraverted. the Ti is trying to make introverted thinking judgments on things that serve the needs of extraverted feeling and is motivated by extraverted feeling. Both Thinking and Feeling are involved in the process, and both the introverted and extraverted aspects of the situation may come into play. Its not that Fe turns to Fi, its just that Fe is replaced by Ti, thus looking like an introverted feeling judgment, when infact its introverted thinking judgment. It's neither a function "turning into" another, nor "replacing" another; they're both working together, and both orientations are involved.

That's another way to put it. There's no conflict there.

What makes you say that the functions are forming a solid unit? It just happens with single things. Like with entropies example, there is clearly unconscious feeling motivation for what ever reasons(thinking) he made up. But what ever reasons he has from the thinking algorithm arent actually logical, because the unconscious motivation that guides thinking isnt logicaland doesent come from thinking. So naturally the thinking fails, even tho it uses the algorithms of thinking, nevertheless it is thinking as it uses the algorithms of thinking.

Yes, with introvert, the dominant attitude of ego is introverted and inferior is extraverted, i dont get why you say this, its obvious and irrelevant. And yes its true that both introversion and extraversion plays a role in this, its also obvious and i said it before. But i also pointed out that the extraversion that plays a role in this is unconscious Fe and introversion that plays a role with this is conscious thinking. Even tho both functions and attitudes play a role there, it doesent mean that it would end up feeling being in introverted attitude.

If you look at this from dario nardis eeg typology model. Fe is mainly the area working mostly with social feedback and Fi is the area placing judgment on what is valuable to me. If you claim that Fe turns intro introverted F once Ti comes into play, it would be a logical fallacy, because it would reguire the thought starting from social feedback, then go into introverted thinking jugment. For this combination turning into personal value judgment, it would reguire you to go back in time and instead of starting from social feedback, it would go directly to personal value judgemt.

Introversion and extraversion of functions arent some thing that just add up together and change if there is one attitude dominating. This happens on extraversion/introversion OF TYPE, not with extraversion and introversion of function. You are trying to apply the principles of MBTI scales onto functions, but that doesent work.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
What I meant was, you're turning the Xe/i function attitudes into solid, inseparable units, and then have to surmise that they "merge" to simulate other Xy units. But that's not how Jung originally conceived them, though through common usage, they have seemed to become that.

The reason I mentioned the dominant and inferior attitudes, is because that what sets the function-attitude from the four functions × 2 orientations. Originally, everything that was not dominant was believed to be in the opposite attitude. From there, it was proposed that the tertiary could be either attitude, by many. This shows the function + attitude structure is a bit more fluid, than these eight hard things, that you insist only four of exist for each type.

This is more the way the functions should be viewed:
31001d1290815910t-mbti-types-illusion-infj-2010-11-26.jpg

Each function has a primary orientation, which is shadowed by the opposite. Overall, you see four functions, divided by the orientations.

F is the humane algorithm, which in an extraverted orientation translates to social feedback and in the introverted orientation translates into placing judgment on what is valuable to me.
It's not that "Fe" turns into introverted F once Ti comes into play, It's that F might seep into an introverted perspective when the dominant attitude (regardless of the dominant function) comes into play. After all, that is the ego's main orientation.
It would start from social feedback, but then might be abstracted into personal value judgment (that's what introversion does).
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
What I meant was, you're turning the Xe/i function attitudes into solid, inseparable units, and then have to surmise that they "merge" to simulate other Xy units. But that's not how Jung originally conceived them, though through common usage, they have seemed to become that.

The reason I mentioned the dominant and inferior attitudes, is because that what sets the function-attitude from the four functions × 2 orientations. Originally, everything that was not dominant was believed to be in the opposite attitude. From there, it was proposed that the tertiary could be either attitude, by many. This shows the function + attitude structure is a bit more fluid, than these eight hard things, that you insist only four of exist for each type.

This is more the way the functions should be viewed:
31001d1290815910t-mbti-types-illusion-infj-2010-11-26.jpg

Each function has a primary orientation, which is shadowed by the opposite. Overall, you see four functions, divided by the orientations.

F is the humane algorithm, which in an extraverted orientation translates to social feedback and in the introverted orientation translates into placing judgment on what is valuable to me.
It's not that "Fe" turns into introverted F once Ti comes into play, It's that F might seep into an introverted perspective when the dominant attitude (regardless of the dominant function) comes into play. After all, that is the ego's main orientation.
It would start from social feedback, but then might be abstracted into personal value judgment (that's what introversion does).

Okay, i figured out where you are going wrong with your functions. There is an subjective(introverted) aspect to extraverted thinking, but its not introverted thinking that is part of extraverted thinking.

For example jung says this about extraverted thinking:
"Thinking in general is fed on the one hand from subjective and in the last resort unconscious sources, and on the other hand from objective data transmitted by sense-perception. Extraverted thinking is conditioned in larger measure by the latter than by former. Judgment always presupposes a criterion; for the extraverted judgment, the criterion supplied by external conditions is the valid and determining one, no matter whether it be represented directly by an objective, perceptible fact or by an objective idea; for an objective idea is equally determined external data or borrowed from outside even when it is subjectively sanctioned."
(Psychological types page 342)

You dont seem to know about this subjective factor of extraverted functions, but claim that this subjective factor is some shadow function.

So even tho ENTJ uses Te only, not Ti, there is subjective factor to the extraverted thinking, the difference really is just that with extraverted thinking, only the objective starting point is seen as valid, while subjective starting point is not, therefore it doesent start from subjective point(like it does with Ti).

With this Fe Fi example, the subjective factor of Fe is not 'whats of personal value'(Fi), but the subjective impression of social feedback.

Also F isnt about humane factor(this is something you came up with in order to fit your views on typology), its an value judgment. Fe makes the value judgment based on social feedback(values of others), while Fi makes the value judgment based on whats of personal value.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Okay, i figured out where you are going wrong with your functions. There is an subjective(introverted) aspect to extraverted thinking, but its not introverted thinking that is part of extraverted thinking.

For example jung says this about extraverted thinking:
"Thinking in general is fed on the one hand from subjective and in the last resort unconscious sources, and on the other hand from objective data transmitted by sense-perception. Extraverted thinking is conditioned in larger measure by the latter than by former. Judgment always presupposes a criterion; for the extraverted judgment, the criterion supplied by external conditions is the valid and determining one, no matter whether it be represented directly by an objective, perceptible fact or by an objective idea; for an objective idea is equally determined external data or borrowed from outside even when it is subjectively sanctioned."
(Psychological types page 342)

You dont seem to know about this subjective factor of extraverted functions, but claim that this subjective factor is some shadow function.

So even tho ENTJ uses Te only, not Ti, there is subjective factor to the extraverted thinking, the difference really is just that with extraverted thinking, only the objective starting point is seen as valid, while subjective starting point is not, therefore it doesent start from subjective point(like it does with Ti).

With this Fe Fi example, the subjective factor of Fe is not 'whats of personal value'(Fi), but the subjective impression of social feedback.
No, no, no; I wasn't referring to the "subjective" factor of an extraverted function, as Jung is describing there.
Again, I'm starting from the premise of the four "natural" (unspecified as to attitude) functions, and that each has an internal or external preference for a given type. Whichever orientation is primary, the opposite attitude is in its "shadow". That's what that bar graph illustrates.
In the example given there, INFJ: N (i/e) F (e/i )T (i/e) S (e/i)
Also F isnt about humane factor(this is something you came up with in order to fit your views on typology), its an value judgment. Fe makes the value judgment based on social feedback(values of others), while Fi makes the value judgment based on whats of personal value.
"Humane" was intended to convey the sense of what you and others call "value judgment". I found that term to be way ambiguous and overgeneralized (and even misused by one "expert" who uses it to make people into "F"s, and particularly Fi users). All judgment functions deal in "value". That's why another word for "judgment process" is "evaluation".

The difference then, is something that lies beneath simply "valuation", and I found that what "values" can be categorized into are "technical" or "humane". This corresponds to the "impersonal" "correct vs incorrect" judgment, as opposed to the more personal "good vs bad", or "like vs dislike" judgments. The latter is what you're calling "value judgment". But it's only one of two kinds of value judgment. What makes it different from the other, is that it deals with how something affects us, humans (whether social or individual), rather than simply "what it is".
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
No, no, no; I wasn't referring to the "subjective" factor of an extraverted function, as Jung is describing there.
Again, I'm starting from the premise of the four "natural" (unspecified as to attitude) functions, and that each has an internal or external preference for a given type. Whichever orientation is primary, the opposite attitude is in its "shadow". That's what that bar graph illustrates.
In the example given there, INFJ: N (i/e) F (e/i )T (i/e) S (e/i)
"Humane" was intended to convey the sense of what you and others call "value judgment". I found that term to be way ambiguous and overgeneralized (and even misused by one "expert" who uses it to make people into "F"s, and particularly Fi users). All judgment functions deal in "value". That's why another word for "judgment process" is "evaluation".

The difference then, is something that lies beneath simply "valuation", and I found that what "values" can be categorized into are "technical" or "humane". This corresponds to the "impersonal" "correct vs incorrect" judgment, as opposed to the more personal "good vs bad", or "like vs dislike" judgments. The latter is what you're calling "value judgment". But it's only one of two kinds of value judgment. What makes it different from the other, is that it deals with how something affects us, humans (whether social or individual), rather than simply "what it is".

Yes you are referring exactly to that, your definition of extraverted/introverted function just isnt jungian, but beebean.

You see in jungian model there is just for example thinking function, which includes both subjective and objective factors. Whether its Te or Ti that someone is using, just depends on whether subjective or objective factor of the function is seen as the valid and determing one.

Read this again:
"Thinking in general is fed on the one hand from subjective and in the last resort unconscious sources, and on the other hand from objective data transmitted by sense-perception. Extraverted thinking is conditioned in larger measure by the latter than by former."

And id like to add something from introverted thinking description:
"Introverted thinking is primarily oriented by the subjective factor. At very least the subjective factor expresses itself as a feeling(dont confuse with feeling function) of guidance which ultimately determines judgment... But whether introverted thinking is concerned with concrete or with abstract objects, always at the decisive points it is oriented by subjective data. It does not lead from concrete experience back again to the object, but always to the subjective content. External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, though the introvert would often like to make his thinking appear so. It begins from the subject and leads back to the subject, far tho it may range into the realm of actual reality."
Page 380

Its not about that there is introverted shadow for extraverted function, because all functions include both subjective and objective factors and whether a function is extroverted or introverted is just about whether the process starts and leads back to subjective or objective factor and naturally the starting point is seen as the determing and more trusted one.

What comes to calling F as humane, its even more misleading as it doesent have anything to do with th word humane. If you look how dictionary defines the word:
"characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed: humane treatment of horses."

F function can just aswell make the opposite value judgment than what is seen as humane. For example if i would think that money is the thing that is worth more than the life of someone else, i could make F judgment that would be "im going to kill that person and take his money" because the money is worth more to me.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Yes you are referring exactly to that, your definition of extraverted/introverted function just isnt jungian, but beebean.

Its not about that there is introverted shadow for extraverted function, because all functions include both subjective and objective factors and whether a function is extroverted or introverted is just about whether the process starts and leads back to subjective or objective factor and naturally the starting point is seen as the determing and more trusted one.
The term "shadow" comes about, when we've identified a type, which prefers to orient the function in one attitude or another. It's still one function, but one orientation is "primary", and the other, is its "shadow". i.e. when we're just talking about a function in general, no one attitude is not automatically "shadow" of the other. You have to identify that function as one of the four primary functions of a particular type.
What comes to calling F as humane, its even more misleading as it doesent have anything to do with the word humane. If you look how dictionary defines the word:
"characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed: humane treatment of horses."

F function can just aswell make the opposite value judgment than what is seen as humane. For example if i would think that money is the thing that is worth more than the life of someone else, i could make F judgment that would be "im going to kill that person and take his money" because the money is worth more to me.
I did try to look for a better term (To match "technical", which is very good for Thinking), but that one seems to be better than the others.

When I saw that first definition, I had second thoughts, but there is a second definition: "of or pertaining to humanistic studies", and this is what I based it on.
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
The term "shadow" comes about, when we've identified a type, which prefers to orient the function in one attitude or another. It's still one function, but one orientation is "primary", and the other, is its "shadow". i.e. when we're just talking about a function in general, no one attitude is not automatically "shadow" of the other. You have to identify that function as one of the four primary functions of a particular type.
I did try to look for a better term (To match "technical", which is very good for Thinking), but that one seems to be better than the others.

When I saw that first definition, I had second thoughts, but there is a second definition: "of or pertaining to humanistic studies", and this is what I based it on.

There is a logic flaw in your view of the shadow function if you view the functions from jungian point of view.

You see. Orientation of function is determined by whether the function is conditioned by larger degree of and whether objective or subjective factor is seen as the trusted and valued factor. Now if you take this shadow function thing, which is the opposite of this more trusted and valued orientation, right? But if the very definition of function orientation is stripped off, you cant say that it is oriented in opposite attitude, its not oriented, but is simply thinking, not introverted thinking in types with extraverted thinking. Therefore its not possible to have both Ti and Te in one type, because only one of subjective and objective factor in thinking is preferred.
Now naturally you can come up with your own typology or see beebean and lenorean typology as more valid than jungian, im simply saying that the 8 function model is not jungian typology or even jungian functions.

This whole humanistic F is neither jungian function, since F has nothing with morals, but simply a judgment of worth
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
What we call "shadow" then, is when the function temporarily switches to the less trusted factor. This, as it should figure, is usually in desperation.
Beebe and Lenore are expansions of Jungian theory. Jung is not "Gospel" that he can't be improved upon.

"Humanistic" is not just about morals.

Humanism is an approach in study, philosophy, world view or practice that focuses on human values and concerns, attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.

This is what I apply it to. F will consider those things more.
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
What we call "shadow" then, is when the function temporarily switches to the less trusted factor. This, as it should figure, is usually in desperation.
Beebe and Lenore are expansions of Jungian theory. Jung is not "Gospel" that he can't be improved upon.

"Humanistic" is not just about morals.

Humanism is an approach in study, philosophy, world view or practice that focuses on human values and concerns, attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.

This is what I apply it to. F will consider those things more.

But with Ne for example, there is always subjective factor which is being compared to the objective one(even tho the objective factor is the preferred one), it switches all the time from objective to subjective, therefore you can take this thing you call shadow apart from the function, its simply part of it.

Human values and concerns are moral questions lol.. F isnt about moral questions
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Again, "shadow" is not in the function itself; it's in the ego. "Shadow" was defined by Jung as the stuff suppressed by consciousness by the ego. (I shouldn't have said "when the function temporarily switches to the less trusted factor"; it's when the ego switches the function).

I think "values and concerns" are a bit more than just "moral" questions, though they of course include/encompass them.
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
Again, "shadow" is not in the function itself; it's in the ego. "Shadow" was defined by Jung as the stuff suppressed by consciousness by the ego. (I shouldn't have said "when the function temporarily switches to the less trusted factor"; it's when the ego switches the function).

I think "values and concerns" are a bit more than just "moral" questions, though they of course include/encompass them.

Shadow is not in the ego. Also incase you didnt know, suppression is an conscious version of repression, suppression isnt how shadow is created, its repressed and never recognized material.
Also you seem to think too much functions in terms of the shadow, if we go literal, its not functions at all in the shadow, its that inferior(also tert and aux if they arent differentiated) work as a doorway to the shadow(also as a doorway to anima and possibly to some other things). Shadow itself has nothing more to do with the functions.

Now that you clarified this to 'when ego switches the function'(which i really cant see having anything to do with what you previously said).
Anyways, remember this quote from op; "only a differentiated function is capable of being directed."?
So now you just talked yourself to another logic problem. Its the ego that does this direction of the differentiated functions. And incase your definition of ego is also way off, ego is the central operating system inside the consciousness. Functions that are not differentiated cant be directed, at least by the ego. This is when this doorway to shadow comes into play, so as i mentioned before, its not functions that are in the shadow, but merely work as a doorway for the shadow to express itself, so you could say that the undifferentiated functions are(at least at times), being directed by the shadow.

Btw (bit off topic, but you might find interesting) this is also how the undifferentiated functions often lead to projections, and no note 'lead to'. Its not the undifferentiated functions that cause the projections, but work as a doorway to shadow to express itself, but because the shadow gets repressed by the ego, the undifferentiated functions lack the reasons why the function was evoked(from ego point of view, and that the only point of view that you are conscious of) and only show the projection. And the thing about projections is that its not just simply something that you see that doesent exist, but there has to be something that triggers the projection. Same way when you see something that reminds you of your conscious self in external world or you see something you like(like if you like kittens, you notice stuff that reminds you of kittens easily). But with projections, its the repressed stuff that gets triggered, thus the external item reminds you(just like with kittens example) something that the ego is unable to see in you. This naturally leads to inability to see the internal object which got associated to the external(as the internal object is repressed), and your ego only gets pointed out about the external object, which also naturally annoys you, since the internal object evokes negative affects as it goes against the ego.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
OK; that was a mistake when I said "shadow is in the ego". I meant either "in the psyche", "in relation to the ego" (i.e. what's outside the ego in the psyche).

As for "direction", that was "direction towards a goal". Not direction in orientation
(which would be how I was taking it). Else, undifferentiated functions would have no e/i attitude.

What's in the shadow (unconscious) is the perspective of the opposite orientation of each function from what's allocated for each type.
 
Top