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  1. #1
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Default jungian view on 8 function(beebean/lenorean) model

    "Thinking that is governed by feeling I do not regard as intuitive thinking, but as a thinking dependant on feeling; it does not follow its own logical principle but is subordinated to the principle of feeling. In such thinking the laws of logic are only ostensibly present; in reality they are suspended in favour of the aims of feeling."
    -Carl Jung [Psychological types, page 482]

    For INTP, this would seem like Fi(8th function according to this), for ENTJ it would seem like Fe(8th), for INTJ it would seem like Fe(7th) and for ENTP it would seem like Fi(7th).

    But its not 7th or 8th function, its just thinking unconsciously following feeling.

    Same can happen with other functions:
    "Fusion of psychological functions, of thinking with feeling, feeling with sensation, feeling with intuition, and so on, is archain."
    (Psychological types page 413)

    These functions, which are fused with other functions are undeveloped/undifferentiated.

    "Differentation means the development of differences, the separation of parts from the whole. So as long as a function is still so fused with one or more other functions -thinking with feeling, feeling with sensation, etc- that it is unable to operate on its own, it is archain condition i.e., not differentiated, not separated from the whole as a special part and existing by itself.[my note, differentation isnt yes or no thing, but function can be more or less differentiated]. Without differentation direction is impossible, since the direction of a function towards a goal depends of elimination of anything irrelevant. Fusion with the irrelevant precludes direction; only a differentiated function is capable of being directed."
    [Psychological types page 424]

    As a conclusion, shadow functions arent your normal functions in opposite orientation, but any of the 4 function that is in archain condition, fused with other functions.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #2
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    What about hybrids ? Why needs a function to be differentiated to develop a goal. Cant two functions bond together and make their own agenda ? Like a righteous zealot who kills infidels in the name of reason propelled by anger and hate ?!
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #3
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    What about hybrids ? Why needs a function to be differentiated to develop a goal. Cant two functions bond together and make their own agenda ? Like a righteous zealot who kills infidels in the name of reason propelled by anger and hate ?!
    This hybrid you are talking about is the archain condition of functions, undifferentiated feeling guiding thinking. The point is that this reason the zealot has is not a reason coming from thinking, its not logical, its a feeling that has gone through some pseudo reasoning process, which isnt logical, but based purely on feelings, no matter how hard he tries to give a logical explanation for his actions.
    Also with this example there is one thing coming to my mind immediately, this is really unhealthy(mentally) and childish behavior, what sort of person goes around killing other people?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    This hybrid you are talking about is the archain condition of functions, undifferentiated feeling guiding thinking. The point is that this reason the zealot has is not a reason coming from thinking, its not logical, its a feeling that has gone through some pseudo reasoning process, which isnt logical, but based purely on feelings, no matter how hard he tries to give a logical explanation for his actions.
    Also with this example there is one thing coming to my mind immediately, this is really unhealthy(mentally) and childish behavior, what sort of person goes around killing other people?
    Someone with an undifferentiated reason.

    So that means vice versa that someone who expresses an undifferentiated feeling was actually expressing a statement motivated by thinking and was not able to express a feeling. Conclusion from this is, there must be people who have no feelings and would without hormones be the epitome of robots right ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #5
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Someone with an undifferentiated reason.

    So that means vice versa that someone who expresses an undifferentiated feeling was actually expressing a statement motivated by thinking and was not able to express a feeling. Conclusion from this is, there must be people who have no feelings and would without hormones be the epitome of robots right ?
    No. Undifferentiated functions merge with other functions, also different parts(judgments or perceptions) of the same function can merge with other parts of the same function.

    Your example sounds like undifferentiated feeling leading thinking.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #6
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    The better way to view this "merger" of functions, is to think of four "natural" functions, S, N, T, F (e/i). They are usually in one or other orientation, but in this "arcane" (is that the word you were using?) condition, may swap the attitudes. The functions are eight things that mix, they're four perspectives, and the attitudes are applied to them, not fixed to them.
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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The better way to view this "merger" of functions, is to think of four "natural" functions, S, N, T, F (e/i). They are usually in one or other orientation, but in this "arcane" (is that the word you were using?) condition, may swap the attitudes. The functions are eight things that mix, they're four perspectives, and the attitudes are applied to them, not fixed to them.
    Jung used the word archain. Its not about orientation changing, so thinking that the function changes orientation isnt a good way to think it. Its about undifferentiated function being in the lead of other function, other functions serving the needs of undifferentiated ones, because the undifferentiated one is unable to be consciously directed. If these two functions are in opposite attitudes, like dom Ti and inferior Fe, the Ti is trying to make introverted thinking judgments on things that serve the needs of extraverted feeling and is motivated by extraverted feeling. Its not that Fe turns to Fi, its just that Fe is replaced by Ti, thus looking like an introverted feeling judgment, when infact its introverted thinking judgment. Functions arent different perspectives, but different algorithms on judging and perception.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #8
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    This still binds the functions and attitudes together into solid "units".

    If these two functions are in opposite attitudes, like dom Ti and inferior Fe, That means the ego's dominant orientation is intoverted, and thus the inferior is extraverted. the Ti is trying to make introverted thinking judgments on things that serve the needs of extraverted feeling and is motivated by extraverted feeling. Both Thinking and Feeling are involved in the process, and both the introverted and extraverted aspects of the situation may come into play. Its not that Fe turns to Fi, its just that Fe is replaced by Ti, thus looking like an introverted feeling judgment, when infact its introverted thinking judgment. It's neither a function "turning into" another, nor "replacing" another; they're both working together, and both orientations are involved.

    Functions arent different perspectives, but different algorithms on judging and perception.
    That's another way to put it. There's no conflict there.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    This still binds the functions and attitudes together into solid "units".

    If these two functions are in opposite attitudes, like dom Ti and inferior Fe, That means the ego's dominant orientation is intoverted, and thus the inferior is extraverted. the Ti is trying to make introverted thinking judgments on things that serve the needs of extraverted feeling and is motivated by extraverted feeling. Both Thinking and Feeling are involved in the process, and both the introverted and extraverted aspects of the situation may come into play. Its not that Fe turns to Fi, its just that Fe is replaced by Ti, thus looking like an introverted feeling judgment, when infact its introverted thinking judgment. It's neither a function "turning into" another, nor "replacing" another; they're both working together, and both orientations are involved.

    That's another way to put it. There's no conflict there.
    What makes you say that the functions are forming a solid unit? It just happens with single things. Like with entropies example, there is clearly unconscious feeling motivation for what ever reasons(thinking) he made up. But what ever reasons he has from the thinking algorithm arent actually logical, because the unconscious motivation that guides thinking isnt logicaland doesent come from thinking. So naturally the thinking fails, even tho it uses the algorithms of thinking, nevertheless it is thinking as it uses the algorithms of thinking.

    Yes, with introvert, the dominant attitude of ego is introverted and inferior is extraverted, i dont get why you say this, its obvious and irrelevant. And yes its true that both introversion and extraversion plays a role in this, its also obvious and i said it before. But i also pointed out that the extraversion that plays a role in this is unconscious Fe and introversion that plays a role with this is conscious thinking. Even tho both functions and attitudes play a role there, it doesent mean that it would end up feeling being in introverted attitude.

    If you look at this from dario nardis eeg typology model. Fe is mainly the area working mostly with social feedback and Fi is the area placing judgment on what is valuable to me. If you claim that Fe turns intro introverted F once Ti comes into play, it would be a logical fallacy, because it would reguire the thought starting from social feedback, then go into introverted thinking jugment. For this combination turning into personal value judgment, it would reguire you to go back in time and instead of starting from social feedback, it would go directly to personal value judgemt.

    Introversion and extraversion of functions arent some thing that just add up together and change if there is one attitude dominating. This happens on extraversion/introversion OF TYPE, not with extraversion and introversion of function. You are trying to apply the principles of MBTI scales onto functions, but that doesent work.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  10. #10
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    What I meant was, you're turning the Xe/i function attitudes into solid, inseparable units, and then have to surmise that they "merge" to simulate other Xy units. But that's not how Jung originally conceived them, though through common usage, they have seemed to become that.

    The reason I mentioned the dominant and inferior attitudes, is because that what sets the function-attitude from the four functions × 2 orientations. Originally, everything that was not dominant was believed to be in the opposite attitude. From there, it was proposed that the tertiary could be either attitude, by many. This shows the function + attitude structure is a bit more fluid, than these eight hard things, that you insist only four of exist for each type.

    This is more the way the functions should be viewed:

    Each function has a primary orientation, which is shadowed by the opposite. Overall, you see four functions, divided by the orientations.

    F is the humane algorithm, which in an extraverted orientation translates to social feedback and in the introverted orientation translates into placing judgment on what is valuable to me.
    It's not that "Fe" turns into introverted F once Ti comes into play, It's that F might seep into an introverted perspective when the dominant attitude (regardless of the dominant function) comes into play. After all, that is the ego's main orientation.
    It would start from social feedback, but then might be abstracted into personal value judgment (that's what introversion does).
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