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  1. #11
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    What I meant was, you're turning the Xe/i function attitudes into solid, inseparable units, and then have to surmise that they "merge" to simulate other Xy units. But that's not how Jung originally conceived them, though through common usage, they have seemed to become that.

    The reason I mentioned the dominant and inferior attitudes, is because that what sets the function-attitude from the four functions × 2 orientations. Originally, everything that was not dominant was believed to be in the opposite attitude. From there, it was proposed that the tertiary could be either attitude, by many. This shows the function + attitude structure is a bit more fluid, than these eight hard things, that you insist only four of exist for each type.

    This is more the way the functions should be viewed:

    Each function has a primary orientation, which is shadowed by the opposite. Overall, you see four functions, divided by the orientations.

    F is the humane algorithm, which in an extraverted orientation translates to social feedback and in the introverted orientation translates into placing judgment on what is valuable to me.
    It's not that "Fe" turns into introverted F once Ti comes into play, It's that F might seep into an introverted perspective when the dominant attitude (regardless of the dominant function) comes into play. After all, that is the ego's main orientation.
    It would start from social feedback, but then might be abstracted into personal value judgment (that's what introversion does).
    Okay, i figured out where you are going wrong with your functions. There is an subjective(introverted) aspect to extraverted thinking, but its not introverted thinking that is part of extraverted thinking.

    For example jung says this about extraverted thinking:
    "Thinking in general is fed on the one hand from subjective and in the last resort unconscious sources, and on the other hand from objective data transmitted by sense-perception. Extraverted thinking is conditioned in larger measure by the latter than by former. Judgment always presupposes a criterion; for the extraverted judgment, the criterion supplied by external conditions is the valid and determining one, no matter whether it be represented directly by an objective, perceptible fact or by an objective idea; for an objective idea is equally determined external data or borrowed from outside even when it is subjectively sanctioned."
    (Psychological types page 342)

    You dont seem to know about this subjective factor of extraverted functions, but claim that this subjective factor is some shadow function.

    So even tho ENTJ uses Te only, not Ti, there is subjective factor to the extraverted thinking, the difference really is just that with extraverted thinking, only the objective starting point is seen as valid, while subjective starting point is not, therefore it doesent start from subjective point(like it does with Ti).

    With this Fe Fi example, the subjective factor of Fe is not 'whats of personal value'(Fi), but the subjective impression of social feedback.

    Also F isnt about humane factor(this is something you came up with in order to fit your views on typology), its an value judgment. Fe makes the value judgment based on social feedback(values of others), while Fi makes the value judgment based on whats of personal value.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Okay, i figured out where you are going wrong with your functions. There is an subjective(introverted) aspect to extraverted thinking, but its not introverted thinking that is part of extraverted thinking.

    For example jung says this about extraverted thinking:
    "Thinking in general is fed on the one hand from subjective and in the last resort unconscious sources, and on the other hand from objective data transmitted by sense-perception. Extraverted thinking is conditioned in larger measure by the latter than by former. Judgment always presupposes a criterion; for the extraverted judgment, the criterion supplied by external conditions is the valid and determining one, no matter whether it be represented directly by an objective, perceptible fact or by an objective idea; for an objective idea is equally determined external data or borrowed from outside even when it is subjectively sanctioned."
    (Psychological types page 342)

    You dont seem to know about this subjective factor of extraverted functions, but claim that this subjective factor is some shadow function.

    So even tho ENTJ uses Te only, not Ti, there is subjective factor to the extraverted thinking, the difference really is just that with extraverted thinking, only the objective starting point is seen as valid, while subjective starting point is not, therefore it doesent start from subjective point(like it does with Ti).

    With this Fe Fi example, the subjective factor of Fe is not 'whats of personal value'(Fi), but the subjective impression of social feedback.
    No, no, no; I wasn't referring to the "subjective" factor of an extraverted function, as Jung is describing there.
    Again, I'm starting from the premise of the four "natural" (unspecified as to attitude) functions, and that each has an internal or external preference for a given type. Whichever orientation is primary, the opposite attitude is in its "shadow". That's what that bar graph illustrates.
    In the example given there, INFJ: N (i/e) F (e/i )T (i/e) S (e/i)
    Also F isnt about humane factor(this is something you came up with in order to fit your views on typology), its an value judgment. Fe makes the value judgment based on social feedback(values of others), while Fi makes the value judgment based on whats of personal value.
    "Humane" was intended to convey the sense of what you and others call "value judgment". I found that term to be way ambiguous and overgeneralized (and even misused by one "expert" who uses it to make people into "F"s, and particularly Fi users). All judgment functions deal in "value". That's why another word for "judgment process" is "evaluation".

    The difference then, is something that lies beneath simply "valuation", and I found that what "values" can be categorized into are "technical" or "humane". This corresponds to the "impersonal" "correct vs incorrect" judgment, as opposed to the more personal "good vs bad", or "like vs dislike" judgments. The latter is what you're calling "value judgment". But it's only one of two kinds of value judgment. What makes it different from the other, is that it deals with how something affects us, humans (whether social or individual), rather than simply "what it is".
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    No, no, no; I wasn't referring to the "subjective" factor of an extraverted function, as Jung is describing there.
    Again, I'm starting from the premise of the four "natural" (unspecified as to attitude) functions, and that each has an internal or external preference for a given type. Whichever orientation is primary, the opposite attitude is in its "shadow". That's what that bar graph illustrates.
    In the example given there, INFJ: N (i/e) F (e/i )T (i/e) S (e/i)
    "Humane" was intended to convey the sense of what you and others call "value judgment". I found that term to be way ambiguous and overgeneralized (and even misused by one "expert" who uses it to make people into "F"s, and particularly Fi users). All judgment functions deal in "value". That's why another word for "judgment process" is "evaluation".

    The difference then, is something that lies beneath simply "valuation", and I found that what "values" can be categorized into are "technical" or "humane". This corresponds to the "impersonal" "correct vs incorrect" judgment, as opposed to the more personal "good vs bad", or "like vs dislike" judgments. The latter is what you're calling "value judgment". But it's only one of two kinds of value judgment. What makes it different from the other, is that it deals with how something affects us, humans (whether social or individual), rather than simply "what it is".
    Yes you are referring exactly to that, your definition of extraverted/introverted function just isnt jungian, but beebean.

    You see in jungian model there is just for example thinking function, which includes both subjective and objective factors. Whether its Te or Ti that someone is using, just depends on whether subjective or objective factor of the function is seen as the valid and determing one.

    Read this again:
    "Thinking in general is fed on the one hand from subjective and in the last resort unconscious sources, and on the other hand from objective data transmitted by sense-perception. Extraverted thinking is conditioned in larger measure by the latter than by former."

    And id like to add something from introverted thinking description:
    "Introverted thinking is primarily oriented by the subjective factor. At very least the subjective factor expresses itself as a feeling(dont confuse with feeling function) of guidance which ultimately determines judgment... But whether introverted thinking is concerned with concrete or with abstract objects, always at the decisive points it is oriented by subjective data. It does not lead from concrete experience back again to the object, but always to the subjective content. External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, though the introvert would often like to make his thinking appear so. It begins from the subject and leads back to the subject, far tho it may range into the realm of actual reality."
    Page 380

    Its not about that there is introverted shadow for extraverted function, because all functions include both subjective and objective factors and whether a function is extroverted or introverted is just about whether the process starts and leads back to subjective or objective factor and naturally the starting point is seen as the determing and more trusted one.

    What comes to calling F as humane, its even more misleading as it doesent have anything to do with th word humane. If you look how dictionary defines the word:
    "characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed: humane treatment of horses."

    F function can just aswell make the opposite value judgment than what is seen as humane. For example if i would think that money is the thing that is worth more than the life of someone else, i could make F judgment that would be "im going to kill that person and take his money" because the money is worth more to me.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Yes you are referring exactly to that, your definition of extraverted/introverted function just isnt jungian, but beebean.

    Its not about that there is introverted shadow for extraverted function, because all functions include both subjective and objective factors and whether a function is extroverted or introverted is just about whether the process starts and leads back to subjective or objective factor and naturally the starting point is seen as the determing and more trusted one.
    The term "shadow" comes about, when we've identified a type, which prefers to orient the function in one attitude or another. It's still one function, but one orientation is "primary", and the other, is its "shadow". i.e. when we're just talking about a function in general, no one attitude is not automatically "shadow" of the other. You have to identify that function as one of the four primary functions of a particular type.
    What comes to calling F as humane, its even more misleading as it doesent have anything to do with the word humane. If you look how dictionary defines the word:
    "characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed: humane treatment of horses."

    F function can just aswell make the opposite value judgment than what is seen as humane. For example if i would think that money is the thing that is worth more than the life of someone else, i could make F judgment that would be "im going to kill that person and take his money" because the money is worth more to me.
    I did try to look for a better term (To match "technical", which is very good for Thinking), but that one seems to be better than the others.

    When I saw that first definition, I had second thoughts, but there is a second definition: "of or pertaining to humanistic studies", and this is what I based it on.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The term "shadow" comes about, when we've identified a type, which prefers to orient the function in one attitude or another. It's still one function, but one orientation is "primary", and the other, is its "shadow". i.e. when we're just talking about a function in general, no one attitude is not automatically "shadow" of the other. You have to identify that function as one of the four primary functions of a particular type.
    I did try to look for a better term (To match "technical", which is very good for Thinking), but that one seems to be better than the others.

    When I saw that first definition, I had second thoughts, but there is a second definition: "of or pertaining to humanistic studies", and this is what I based it on.
    There is a logic flaw in your view of the shadow function if you view the functions from jungian point of view.

    You see. Orientation of function is determined by whether the function is conditioned by larger degree of and whether objective or subjective factor is seen as the trusted and valued factor. Now if you take this shadow function thing, which is the opposite of this more trusted and valued orientation, right? But if the very definition of function orientation is stripped off, you cant say that it is oriented in opposite attitude, its not oriented, but is simply thinking, not introverted thinking in types with extraverted thinking. Therefore its not possible to have both Ti and Te in one type, because only one of subjective and objective factor in thinking is preferred.
    Now naturally you can come up with your own typology or see beebean and lenorean typology as more valid than jungian, im simply saying that the 8 function model is not jungian typology or even jungian functions.

    This whole humanistic F is neither jungian function, since F has nothing with morals, but simply a judgment of worth
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  6. #16
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    What we call "shadow" then, is when the function temporarily switches to the less trusted factor. This, as it should figure, is usually in desperation.
    Beebe and Lenore are expansions of Jungian theory. Jung is not "Gospel" that he can't be improved upon.

    "Humanistic" is not just about morals.

    Humanism is an approach in study, philosophy, world view or practice that focuses on human values and concerns, attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.

    This is what I apply it to. F will consider those things more.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    What we call "shadow" then, is when the function temporarily switches to the less trusted factor. This, as it should figure, is usually in desperation.
    Beebe and Lenore are expansions of Jungian theory. Jung is not "Gospel" that he can't be improved upon.

    "Humanistic" is not just about morals.

    Humanism is an approach in study, philosophy, world view or practice that focuses on human values and concerns, attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.

    This is what I apply it to. F will consider those things more.
    But with Ne for example, there is always subjective factor which is being compared to the objective one(even tho the objective factor is the preferred one), it switches all the time from objective to subjective, therefore you can take this thing you call shadow apart from the function, its simply part of it.

    Human values and concerns are moral questions lol.. F isnt about moral questions
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  8. #18
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    Again, "shadow" is not in the function itself; it's in the ego. "Shadow" was defined by Jung as the stuff suppressed by consciousness by the ego. (I shouldn't have said "when the function temporarily switches to the less trusted factor"; it's when the ego switches the function).

    I think "values and concerns" are a bit more than just "moral" questions, though they of course include/encompass them.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Again, "shadow" is not in the function itself; it's in the ego. "Shadow" was defined by Jung as the stuff suppressed by consciousness by the ego. (I shouldn't have said "when the function temporarily switches to the less trusted factor"; it's when the ego switches the function).

    I think "values and concerns" are a bit more than just "moral" questions, though they of course include/encompass them.
    Shadow is not in the ego. Also incase you didnt know, suppression is an conscious version of repression, suppression isnt how shadow is created, its repressed and never recognized material.
    Also you seem to think too much functions in terms of the shadow, if we go literal, its not functions at all in the shadow, its that inferior(also tert and aux if they arent differentiated) work as a doorway to the shadow(also as a doorway to anima and possibly to some other things). Shadow itself has nothing more to do with the functions.

    Now that you clarified this to 'when ego switches the function'(which i really cant see having anything to do with what you previously said).
    Anyways, remember this quote from op; "only a differentiated function is capable of being directed."?
    So now you just talked yourself to another logic problem. Its the ego that does this direction of the differentiated functions. And incase your definition of ego is also way off, ego is the central operating system inside the consciousness. Functions that are not differentiated cant be directed, at least by the ego. This is when this doorway to shadow comes into play, so as i mentioned before, its not functions that are in the shadow, but merely work as a doorway for the shadow to express itself, so you could say that the undifferentiated functions are(at least at times), being directed by the shadow.

    Btw (bit off topic, but you might find interesting) this is also how the undifferentiated functions often lead to projections, and no note 'lead to'. Its not the undifferentiated functions that cause the projections, but work as a doorway to shadow to express itself, but because the shadow gets repressed by the ego, the undifferentiated functions lack the reasons why the function was evoked(from ego point of view, and that the only point of view that you are conscious of) and only show the projection. And the thing about projections is that its not just simply something that you see that doesent exist, but there has to be something that triggers the projection. Same way when you see something that reminds you of your conscious self in external world or you see something you like(like if you like kittens, you notice stuff that reminds you of kittens easily). But with projections, its the repressed stuff that gets triggered, thus the external item reminds you(just like with kittens example) something that the ego is unable to see in you. This naturally leads to inability to see the internal object which got associated to the external(as the internal object is repressed), and your ego only gets pointed out about the external object, which also naturally annoys you, since the internal object evokes negative affects as it goes against the ego.
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  10. #20
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    OK; that was a mistake when I said "shadow is in the ego". I meant either "in the psyche", "in relation to the ego" (i.e. what's outside the ego in the psyche).

    As for "direction", that was "direction towards a goal". Not direction in orientation
    (which would be how I was taking it). Else, undifferentiated functions would have no e/i attitude.

    What's in the shadow (unconscious) is the perspective of the opposite orientation of each function from what's allocated for each type.
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