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  1. #71
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    I think some people actually like this divide.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I've had what seemed to be long meaningful conversations with S types, but I think sometimes in retrospect it turned out that I'd simply invested a lot of the "meaningfulness" myself (and they probably saw it as interesting, but not very meaningful.)
    How do you know that they possibly saw it as interesting but not very meaningful?

    I would like to speculate that if i were to have a meaningful conversation with someone even if i am unable to visually see the 'Aha' moment, i would like to think i have at least planted a seed and food for thought at a later date.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
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  2. #72
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    What an interesting comment. Could you clarify the difference you see between meaningful and interesting in this context? I'm having a hard time imagining them separately since talking about a meaningful topic would be interesting, and having an interesting conversation would be meaningful (to the relationship, I guess).

    Do you just mean like playful bantering/small talk vs Serious Business?
    Hmm... It could be playful banter vs serious business. But I think what I mean is, the kind of conversation that I think is...leading somewhere in terms of my relationship with the person. This could mean: I feel it's going to lead us into a closer friendship; or, it's someone I'm interested in and I think it's going to lead to us being closer/perhaps heading in the "relationship" direction; or, it's someone I'm in a relationship with and I think it's leading us towards deeper caring and understanding.

    I think in all of the above, there have been times when I've thought that a potential friend and I opened up sufficiently to each other to lead to a proper friendship - and then we never really did become friends and they seemed fairly disinterested in me later. Or, it was a guy I was interested in and we were sharing fairly deep thoughts and feelings, and later he says "well, that didn't mean much, it was just talk and interests in common." Or, someone I was in a relationship with, and I thought we were moving toward deeper understanding by discussing our feelings, and later he turned it around and used it as evidence of why I didn't "get him" to the level required, or dismissed something he'd said to me which sounded pretty meaningful as simply being "in the moment".

    That sort of thing...

    I just realised how very "F" this response is. Perhaps my take on "meaningful" as distinct from "interesting" is more of an F/T divide...
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  3. #73
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saslou View Post
    I think some people actually like this divide.
    At least personally, I don't like it... rather, it frustrates me... but I can't deny that I find some truth in it. I hope to overcome it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    But I think what I mean is, the kind of conversation that I think is...leading somewhere in terms of my relationship with the person. This could mean: I feel it's going to lead us into a closer friendship; or, it's someone I'm interested in and I think it's going to lead to us being closer/perhaps heading in the "relationship" direction; or, it's someone I'm in a relationship with and I think it's leading us towards deeper caring and understanding.

    I think in all of the above, there have been times when I've thought that a potential friend and I opened up sufficiently to each other to lead to a proper friendship - and then we never really did become friends and they seemed fairly disinterested in me later. Or, it was a guy I was interested in and we were sharing fairly deep thoughts and feelings, and later he says "well, that didn't mean much, it was just talk and interests in common." Or, someone I was in a relationship with, and I thought we were moving toward deeper understanding by discussing our feelings, and later he turned it around and used it as evidence of why I didn't "get him" to the level required, or dismissed something he'd said to me which sounded pretty meaningful as simply being "in the moment".

    That sort of thing...

    I just realised how very "F" this response is. Perhaps my take on "meaningful" as distinct from "interesting" is more of an F/T divide...
    This is true for myself as well. Generally there is a conversation that seems to hold much gravity and seriousness to me and the other person does not seem so interested in it. Or I think the conversation is just heating up and they are ready for it to end.

    Personally, I wish for more serious, "soul-depth" conversation, and more general romanticism. More pause and quiet recognition of the sacred and deeply meaningful. This is true both with Ss and Ts, though NTs less so. An NF thing, I suppose. Or perhaps an oddity of my own self, personality regardless.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    At least personally, I don't like it... rather, it frustrates me... but I can't deny that I find some truth in it. I hope to overcome it.



    This is true for myself as well. Generally there is a conversation that seems to hold much gravity and seriousness to me and the other person does not seem so interested in it. Or I think the conversation is just heating up and they are ready for it to end.

    Personally, I wish for more serious, "soul-depth" conversation, and more general romanticism. More pause and quiet recognition of the sacred and deeply meaningful. This is true both with Ss and Ts, though NTs. An NF thing, I suppose. Or perhaps an oddity of my own self, personality regardless.
    SilkRoad, Bolded is one way to detect meaningful conversations...introspection which is usually accompanied by a pause/quiet recognition. Questions or intent listening is generally curiosity...but you probably are gonna have to get out of your internal "meaningful" to really start to notice and pick up on these things. Inferior Se possibly?
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #75
    small potatoes NotOfTwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Hmm... It could be playful banter vs serious business. But I think what I mean is, the kind of conversation that I think is...leading somewhere in terms of my relationship with the person. This could mean: I feel it's going to lead us into a closer friendship; or, it's someone I'm interested in and I think it's going to lead to us being closer/perhaps heading in the "relationship" direction; or, it's someone I'm in a relationship with and I think it's leading us towards deeper caring and understanding.

    I think in all of the above, there have been times when I've thought that a potential friend and I opened up sufficiently to each other to lead to a proper friendship - and then we never really did become friends and they seemed fairly disinterested in me later. Or, it was a guy I was interested in and we were sharing fairly deep thoughts and feelings, and later he says "well, that didn't mean much, it was just talk and interests in common." Or, someone I was in a relationship with, and I thought we were moving toward deeper understanding by discussing our feelings, and later he turned it around and used it as evidence of why I didn't "get him" to the level required, or dismissed something he'd said to me which sounded pretty meaningful as simply being "in the moment".

    That sort of thing...

    I just realised how very "F" this response is. Perhaps my take on "meaningful" as distinct from "interesting" is more of an F/T divide...
    +1

    We all gotz feelinz

    Ps. I feel I must expand. I had a conversation with my ESFJ friend, we were discussing how we viewed making connections differently. She viewed them on a shorter term, where I viewed them as investing in an actual relationship. She is terrible at maintaining ld friends where I tend to be a lifer. I said, "why would I waste my time confiding in and growing close to someone who would be temporary?" She said, "making short term connections with no expectations makes life smooth and pleasant." It was interesting. We find each other's way to be exhausting.
    "It's never enough." The Cure

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Hmm... It could be playful banter vs serious business. But I think what I mean is, the kind of conversation that I think is...leading somewhere in terms of my relationship with the person. This could mean: I feel it's going to lead us into a closer friendship; or, it's someone I'm interested in and I think it's going to lead to us being closer/perhaps heading in the "relationship" direction; or, it's someone I'm in a relationship with and I think it's leading us towards deeper caring and understanding.

    I think in all of the above, there have been times when I've thought that a potential friend and I opened up sufficiently to each other to lead to a proper friendship - and then we never really did become friends and they seemed fairly disinterested in me later. Or, it was a guy I was interested in and we were sharing fairly deep thoughts and feelings, and later he says "well, that didn't mean much, it was just talk and interests in common." Or, someone I was in a relationship with, and I thought we were moving toward deeper understanding by discussing our feelings, and later he turned it around and used it as evidence of why I didn't "get him" to the level required, or dismissed something he'd said to me which sounded pretty meaningful as simply being "in the moment".

    That sort of thing...

    I just realised how very "F" this response is. Perhaps my take on "meaningful" as distinct from "interesting" is more of an F/T divide...
    I would say its more T/F divide after that context. Helps me alot with INFJs way of working...thanks
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #77
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    SilkRoad, Bolded is one way to detect meaningful conversations...introspection which is usually accompanied by a pause/quiet recognition. Questions or intent listening is generally curiosity...but you probably are gonna have to get out of your internal "meaningful" to really start to notice and pick up on these things. Inferior Se possibly?
    Good points. I am a pretty attentive conversationalist but in some contexts it is too easy to let what YOU want out of the exchange cloud the issue of what's actually going on.

    However, sometimes people will revise things after the fact too. Not many people are honest enough or self-aware enough to NOT do so. I think for instance that even if someone was genuinely really into you at the time, they're likely to say "well that didn't mean much" after the fact when for whatever reason they've decided not to pursue it.
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  8. #78
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    I would say its more T/F divide after that context. Helps me alot with INFJs way of working...thanks
    Yes... It's not that I ONLY ever enjoy conversation which is heavy and deep and which is either leading to a deeper friendship, or a relationship! It's possible to have a fascinating conversation with someone you'll never meet again, who you're unlikely to develop a friendship with, or who is totally unavailable relationship-wise. But I think in general these days I get...a bit bored and frustrated if conversation with someone is purely "interesting" on an intellectual sort of basis or for exchange of information. If I'm going to spend a lot of time on interactions with someone, that's not really what I'm looking for. I used to be more into debating/intellectual banter when I was younger, but I no longer am.
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  9. #79
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    I do feel like the divide in communication is real, although I'd be hard-pressed to fully explain it in a satisfactory way.

    As for satisfying conversations . . . well, I'm pretty sure that my best friend from middle school/high school was an ISFJ. And me and her had plenty of satisfying conversations. We spent all day together at school and then came home and spent hours on the phone almost every night. Our record was 9 hours straight! I think what made us connect that well was because we both liked to analyze and do critical thinking. Also (and this is a biggie), our Fe-aux connection was outrageous. Once we trusted each other, it was like our lives became one. We did have differences--she thought I was too out there sometimes and I thought she wasn't out there enough--but we both had enough love for the other to not dwell on this.

    I also currently have an ISFJ acquaintance who I have a strong Fe-aux connection to, and this leads to some good convos that are Fe-based.

    I have an ESFJ good friend (who I rarely ever see, unfortunately) who also connects with me on Fe-things. What I mean is that we share what's going on in our lives every time we see each other and celebrate good things together while giving support during bad times. We also both love to read--we have different genres that we like, but we'll suggest books to each other and then read them at the same time. This way, we're expanding our reading circulation, and I love discussing the books with her.

    Then there's my ISTP bro. I rarely ever have any problems communicating with him. He normally prefers having fun conversations than serious ones, and we normally connect through Ti in both, whether it's critically analyzing something or having a pun war while everyone rolls their eyes at us . I find the majority of our conversations satisfying.

    So in my own experience, I seem to find that I can have conversations with sensors that are satisfying to me if the conversation is focused on satisfying something other than my Ni. Not to say that I can't have good conversations with sensors who don't have high Fe or Ti, but this seems to be a general trend for me.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  10. #80
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Sensors in my life complain about my form of conversation sometimes.

    I'm too "analytical" for SFs - to them this is tiresome and even read as "argumentative". I'm too impractical for STs - to them there is no reason to talk of these ideas. I see the eyes roll or glaze over.

    Se-dom don't like my speculation. My ESFP sister would cut me off growing up to say, "That's not real". She cannot stand to hear anything hypothetical, theoretical, or illustrative even. She'll just tune it out or start talking over it.

    With Si-dom, I can get farther. They like info. I can discuss interests with them and analyze to a point. They're patient with me.

    Even my playful side is not grasped - it's too odd for the STs and too wry for the SFs. Some of that is my own insecurity though; ENPs just go for it & accept the weird label, knowing they are entertaining.

    I don't like to discuss my life events; this seems secretive to Ss. I don't recall any details; I seem disinterested or uninteresting because of it. I don't bond over relating my experiences or stating future, concrete plans; I seem detached to them. My interests are too bookish; I don't have enough action in my life to catch their attention.

    However, I adapt to Ss more than vice versa, and I suspect this is why Ss complain less. There are more of them, and from an early age you must adapt to be understood. Metaphorical speak has to be eased up and the urge to consider the meaning of something & what it indicates in relation to something else is squashed as it does not relate enough to "real life". If it relates to real life, then they might hear you out for approx 2 minutes.

    When I find I can speak without this filter, it is often an N. Not always, but when it is an S, it's usually someone I've known for awhile, that I am close to, who is willing to adapt to me a bit; OR I'm doing "feeling" conversation, which I find easier to bond with most people over.

    For me, "N conversation" is not deeper, not about certain topics, not heavier, just a certain way of approaching things. It's hard to articulate the difference.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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