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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's not only a matter of being able to follow someone or finding them interesting, but also of considering their view & way as valid or valuable.

    You mention that you'd rather do than talk about something. Well, there I am at an impasse with many ISTPs. Not to say I cannot or do not have interesting discussions with them, but I'd often rather read or analyze or imagine than DO. I've found when they discover this, they are contemptuous towards me, and my view & way is invalidated or devalued, even if they can grasp what I say intellectually and sometimes find me "entertaining".
    Honestly with the way MBTI is setup and typing I can easily see why this is the case for you...as with pretty much ALL typing systems I have come across...I dont have the standard "dichotomy" as in "pros/cons" that most "ISTPs" have. I tend to match the PROs, but my CONs line up completely different. I have seen this in ALOT of other systems in regard to me and I see this as well as I have been told this. You would rather talk...k, how would 5-6 hours on the phone talking and hanging up because its 3AM and I gotta get to work the next day. Still do this at times to this day as friends, we also IM alot. Just not as much as before....and to give you an idea of before...atleast 5 hours a night of talking or IMing was normal. So when I say cut back or not as much you have to understand where I am coming from. I also dont devalue, invalidate, nor am I contemptuos toward Ns either...ok maybe some Ns, but that tends to be more toward Js then Ns really. I find more of an issue between J/P split then I do N/S. Something about that controlling that is J, my P side likes to fight.

    Anyway...you can argue if you want. I am just gonna have to disagree with the generality as I still do not believe that N/S is the cause of what you see nor does it do any real justice. It just creates just as much an issue as it does solve a problem. Grouping at that high a level is WAY to broad. Its like stealing from peter to pay paul. INFP tries to group me with INTJs all the time...only I dont have that "Negative" side that she sees, just as I dont have that negative side that most who are typed as "ISTP" have. I have a hole other set of "issues" to deal with.

    What comes to mind with MBTI is "Inherent flaw in the design of the system" which you have to get around and to do this you must understand "half" types....it would kinda be like "wings" with enneagram.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Honestly with the way MBTI is setup and typing I can easily see why this is the case for you...as with pretty much ALL typing systems I have come across...I dont have the standard "dichotomy" as in "pros/cons" that most "ISTPs" have. I tend to match the PROs, but my CONs line up completely different. I have seen this in ALOT of other systems in regard to me and I see this as well as I have been told this. You would rather talk...k, how would 5-6 hours on the phone talking and hanging up because its 3AM and I gotta get to work the next day. Still do this at times to this day as friends, we also IM alot. Just not as much as before....and to give you an idea of before...atleast 5 hours a night of talking or IMing was normal. So when I say cut back or not as much you have to understand where I am coming from. I also dont devalue, invalidate, nor am I contemptuos toward Ns either...ok maybe some Ns, but that tends to be more toward Js then Ns really. I find more of an issue between J/P split then I do N/S. Something about that controlling that is J, my P side likes to fight.

    Anyway...you can argue if you want. I am just gonna have to disagree with the generality as I still do not believe that N/S is the cause of what you see nor does it do any real justice. It just creates just as much an issue as it does solve a problem. Grouping at that high a level is WAY to broad. Its like stealing from peter to pay paul. INFP tries to group me with INTJs all the time...only I dont have that "Negative" side that she sees, just as I dont have that negative side that most who are typed as "ISTP" have. I have a hole other set of "issues" to deal with.

    What comes to mind with MBTI is "Inherent flaw in the design of the system" which you have to get around and to do this you must understand "half" types....it would kinda be like "wings" with enneagram.
    You know... I sort of wonder if this is a something where the strongest attribute is the one that can cause the most individual chafing (thats what she said, hahaha). For me, my highest score by far is the one of the N-S scale and my lowest score is on the P/J scale.

    Hmm... anyways, just a random thought after reading your post.

  3. #123
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Honestly with the way MBTI is setup and typing I can easily see why this is the case for you...as with pretty much ALL typing systems I have come across...I dont have the standard "dichotomy" as in "pros/cons" that most "ISTPs" have. I tend to match the PROs, but my CONs line up completely different. I have seen this in ALOT of other systems in regard to me and I see this as well as I have been told this.
    The systems are not fully comprehensive of personality and never will or can be; this is true and I don't mean to imply that people must be exactly as descriptions make their type out to be. It's also not my intent to imply there is some hopeless gap between Ss and Ns or that each will get along much better with "one of their own kind" or anything of that nature. I think awareness of differences, whether type related or not, can help bridge communication gaps, and it's from this perspective that I'd like for people to discuss this topic, not to degrade other types or invalidate personal experiences that don't fit a theory or other people's experiences. It's fine to say "I don't fit this association with Ss", but that doesn't change my experience nor does it invalidate the discussion as a whole.

    You would rather talk...k, how would 5-6 hours on the phone talking and hanging up because its 3AM and I gotta get to work the next day. Still do this at times to this day as friends, we also IM alot. Just not as much as before....and to give you an idea of before...atleast 5 hours a night of talking or IMing was normal. So when I say cut back or not as much you have to understand where I am coming from.
    haha...nooooo, I am still an introvert. Talking for more than 30 min on the phone drives me nuts. I only have a phone out of necessity.... My ESFP ex would keep me on the phone for like 5 hours, and yes, we had great conversations sometimes, but dear god, I needed SPACE. I don't mean to imply there is no appreciation for my style from them or that I don't enjoy theirs (in regards to Ss, SPs & even ISTPs), etc. I just mean that there is a consistent trend in HOW we don't align, and I think the S/N differences can explain why, or some aspect of why, as the why tends to be multi-faceted. When I say I'd rather talk than do, I mean that I connect with people in that manner more so than sharing activities. It doesn't mean I like to talk a LOT.

    I also dont devalue, invalidate, nor am I contemptuos toward Ns either...ok maybe some Ns, but that tends to be more toward Js then Ns really. I find more of an issue between J/P split then I do N/S. Something about that controlling that is J, my P side likes to fight.
    I don't doubt that you don't do those things.... but they are done by others, and I see a pattern in who does it in what way and how that connects to their type. I'm looking at a general overview; a case-by-case consideration will always show exceptions. I have much better conversations with and am understood much better by my ISFJ mom than my ENTP or ISFP dads (and yet, one is a fellow NP & the other FP); that's because whatever N/S divide there may be (and there is one), there is more there for us to connect over so that N/S divide & Fe/Fi divide & other differences are bridged, even if it just comes down to mutual willingness at times.

    Anyway...you can argue if you want. I am just gonna have to disagree with the generality as I still do not believe that N/S is the cause of what you see nor does it do any real justice. It just creates just as much an issue as it does solve a problem. Grouping at that high a level is WAY to broad. Its like stealing from peter to pay paul. INFP tries to group me with INTJs all the time...only I dont have that "Negative" side that she sees, just as I dont have that negative side that most who are typed as "ISTP" have. I have a hole other set of "issues" to deal with.

    What comes to mind with MBTI is "Inherent flaw in the design of the system" which you have to get around and to do this you must understand "half" types....it would kinda be like "wings" with enneagram.
    I totally agree that a person's dominant preference will be tempered by the aux and even the tert and many, many non-type factors.
    This doesn't mean you can't isolate an aspect and see how it affects interaction and communication. It's not like I'm trying to explain every facet of my interaction with people based on N/S stuff.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #124
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I've had massive arguments with my ISTP boss, it turns we are saying the same thing, most of time. He is an extrodinary clever man, yet we misunderstand each other all the time. There's only so many times you can have essentially the same argument without noticing a pattern. It could be Ti vs Fi or it could be Se vs Ne. Take your pick. Considering his nickname for me is space cadet and teases me about some of my more left field ideas. He almost never teases me about how emo I am, it wouldn't be reaching to say this is an S vs N thing. Yet it means nothing when everyday we are faced
    With almost insurmountable communication barriers between allied health and nursing staff. It's a running joke.
    What I'm saying is the divide exsists but it's more like dialect problem of neighboring tribes, than say speaking in Japanese to Germans. All is forgotten between the two tribes when their shared territories are threatened by a man eating bear.
    *disclaimer, I'm not insulting nurses in general. This seems to be a workplace culture thing.*
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  5. #125
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I have another thought to add...most people who been around know that Orangey once identified as INTP. She, herself hadn't changed, and I'm guessing nobody has issues communicating with her, so therefore it must be in people's heads. She maybe has a point there. Except for this absurd if there is no concrete proof, it doesn't exist attitude. How do you know photosynthesis exists? You can't see it happening?
    Upon reflection, I have more trouble with T vs F communication, but there is superiority complex going on there too. Not to mention the Infp hate that resurges every so often. I like the sensors, this place would be boring without their input.
    I hope no-one is upset this, esp. Orangey. I just thought your position on this was particularly pertinent.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  6. #126
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    I think that for me IRL the biggest communication divides often show up over J vs P, and especially IxxJ vs ExxP.
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  7. #127
    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrystalViolet View Post
    I've had massive arguments with my ISTP boss, it turns we are saying the same thing, most of time.
    This is what frequently happens in my experience with types that take the opposite orientation with every function.

    You are either:
    Ne Fi Te Si
    Fi Ne Si Te

    Whereas an ISTP is
    Ti Se Ni Fe

    I often have this sort of miscommunication with NFJs and STPs. I do not usually have it with NFPs.
    I don't see any invisible treasure chests.

    • MBTI? ISTJ
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The systems are not fully comprehensive of personality and never will or can be; this is true and I don't mean to imply that people must be exactly as descriptions make their type out to be. It's also not my intent to imply there is some hopeless gap between Ss and Ns or that each will get along much better with "one of their own kind" or anything of that nature. I think awareness of differences, whether type related or not, can help bridge communication gaps, and it's from this perspective that I'd like for people to discuss this topic, not to degrade other types or invalidate personal experiences that don't fit a theory or other people's experiences. It's fine to say "I don't fit this association with Ss", but that doesn't change my experience nor does it invalidate the discussion as a whole.



    haha...nooooo, I am still an introvert. Talking for more than 30 min on the phone drives me nuts. I only have a phone out of necessity.... My ESFP ex would keep me on the phone for like 5 hours, and yes, we had great conversations sometimes, but dear god, I needed SPACE. I don't mean to imply there is no appreciation for my style from them or that I don't enjoy theirs (in regards to Ss, SPs & even ISTPs), etc. I just mean that there is a consistent trend in HOW we don't align, and I think the S/N differences can explain why, or some aspect of why, as the why tends to be multi-faceted. When I say I'd rather talk than do, I mean that I connect with people in that manner more so than sharing activities. It doesn't mean I like to talk a LOT.



    I don't doubt that you don't do those things.... but they are done by others, and I see a pattern in who does it in what way and how that connects to their type. I'm looking at a general overview; a case-by-case consideration will always show exceptions. I have much better conversations with and am understood much better by my ISFJ mom than my ENTP or ISFP dads (and yet, one is a fellow NP & the other FP); that's because whatever N/S divide there may be (and there is one), there is more there for us to connect over so that N/S divide & Fe/Fi divide & other differences are bridged, even if it just comes down to mutual willingness at times.



    I totally agree that a person's dominant preference will be tempered by the aux and even the tert and many, many non-type factors.
    This doesn't mean you can't isolate an aspect and see how it affects interaction and communication. It's not like I'm trying to explain every facet of my interaction with people based on N/S stuff.
    Strangely, I am not a phone person either...never have been.

    Esseintially what i am saying is that N/S devide is a probably a 50/50 where as half the time it helps and half the time its blowing smoke. So to get down and seperate it even further by lots of unique cases is where hopefully some light is shed. And no i cannot invalidate experiences, but you can shed furtherlight on them. Just like orangey, i tested INTP first as well, but didnt fit in because we went about things backwards normally. And while troubleshooting they werent actually open beyond MBTI type analysis. I wasa member of intpc and they it was interesting there troubleshooting skills seemed to involve being stuck in a pattern such as MBTI instead of taking on case by case basis and in essence that even further subjects them to what is MBTI instead of opening theres eye and merging MBTI with life. When u stick with what is defined you are essentially trapped in a box someone else created...all patterns are the same way...you are essentially stuck in all these little boxes hoping from one to another. I have an ownership issue...i take ownership and work on expanding out those boxes. I do this with everything.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #129
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrystalViolet View Post
    Except for this absurd if there is no concrete proof, it doesn't exist attitude. How do you know photosynthesis exists? You can't see it happening?
    Proof is different from being visible, and it's also not an all-or-nothing event.

    Proof>evidence>reasoning>speculation>wanting something to be true so pretending it is

    There is proof that photosynthesis exists. There is evidence that certain enzymes are necessary. There is reasoning that two enzymes interact a certain way given their structure. There is speculation that maybe if we changed this enzyme, it might do something completely different. and so on.

    Since typology is not science, it's not going to be as strongly supported by evidence, but it's also not out of line to ask for some kind of hard facts to back up your statements, particularly when the statements are controversial or otherwise strange. If no hard facts are possible (even things like surveys are better than nothing), it's preferable to include the reasoning underlying the statement, if going further than simply sharing your experiences with one person. Unless you like having a "discussion" where each side just blatantly makes things up or blindly assumes that every esfj on the planet is just like their esfj ex, or heaven forbid, every S on the planet is just like their ESFJ ex...

    These sorts of conversations are often heavily dominated by INxxs who are likely to prefer a few close friendships and therefore have a low sample size to draw from, and I see far too many statements like "my 2 [rarely even confirmed] S friends are like this, therefore Ss are like this" with no clear reason why such wild generalization is likely to be accurate.
    -end of thread-

  10. #130
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    S and N make for amazing creative collaborations. I worked with a couple of strongly Si individuals on some creative projects and their sense of how to effectively apply the ideas concretely and their ability to edit and see any flaw in the details were especially valuable. I work really hard on details and so might be able to remember an above average amount when I'm focused, but it is pretty amazing to work with someone who is gifted with details. Si can internalize what a creative work "should" be like in high resolution, and so they can tell when the smallest thing is off.

    I think there are a lot of different sorts of conversations that could happen between N and S, and so many would be interesting to me, and some wouldn't. Nature would be a great topic creating intersections between the two.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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