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  1. #101
    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireShield98 View Post
    My ISTJ friend and I always have good conversations. Basically, we just debate things we disagree on, but in a lighthearted manner. He's really stubborn and narrow-minded in his beliefs, so I'm never able to convince him, but it's still fun to try. I suppose I'm equally stubborn, but I at least understand (or try to understand) why he thinks that, while he doesn't seem to do that at all.

    But he can never tell when I'm joking, since I always joke with a serious tone and a straight face. And I can never tell whether he truly believes what he's saying or not since his reasons are always so stupid.

    Edit: And by "stupid," I don't mean ridiculous or invalid, but just that they're not really well-thought out. Basically, he believes people shouldn't do certain things because they're bad things to do. He believes they're bad to do simply because they're bad. That's why he's impossible to convince - but it's still fun debating with him.
    The same way that you most likely do not tell him why you think he is stubborn and narrow minded, he does not tell you about his personal reservations. I am not of course saying that he thinks negatively of you; how am I to know? But he most likely will not reveal to you it either way unless you asked.

    Do you ask him to justify right on the spot though? It takes time for me to sort through my thoughts on something and revalidate it. In big discussions, I like keeping around a piece of paper to get my ideas down well. In a few seconds, he will be able only to tell you his overall big judgement. On a given issue, I have almost a mental outline of my thoughts. A bullet point list, if you will. With lots of subheadings and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    I am still stumped by this "most of the population is an S" thing. It seems like a pretty even split to me.
    I feel the same way a lot of the time, but as most people in my life are not confirmed any type, I can't be sure. And the people I know close enough to guess seem to be split fairly evenly between S/N, but as that is a selected group, it would not be fair to use it as a general estimate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    You only have to go to the Popular Culture and Type thread to see how often intuitors mistype people and characters as N, simply because they think they're smart, insightful, interesting and/or is someone they identify with. In other words, they will believe that person is an intuitor before they would imagine that they could admire or relate that much to a sensor - which is just plain idiotic.
    I have a tendency to identify people as Si-Ne and Ne-Si types a lot because it is easier for me to grasp than Se-Ni and Ni-Se. But I think that it's just a little bias of mine, and I don't identify people with traits I like as a particular type. I may have very slight bias against SPs, but that is about it. And it seems to be due more to ignorance on my part than anything else.
    I don't see any invisible treasure chests.

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  2. #102
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    This topic is so true(*sarcasm*), I was on the phone with my INFP friend last night and we had nothing to talk about. Its been a common off/on thing for the last couple weeks. Of course before that we could talk on the phone for hours easy just joking and poking at each other.

    The phone part is true though. I dont read into it other then we just dont always have alot to talk about these days, doesnt have much to do with the N/S split. The lack of understanding isnt ever a bad thing either, we dont dwell on it, its just one of the things that give us something to talk about. We are both extremely patient people and work through those and we usually just see it as men/women differences. When we dont click on the phone its just kinda like small talk without as much joking, playing, and making fun of each other and ourselves and more silence then normal.


    Yes the initial stages was awkward, very awkward, but we made it past those....I guess you could call it "unsatisfying"...I just call it awkward and it lasts until you get past it.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #103
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owfin View Post
    I just don't like this assumption that Ss don't adapt to Ns. It makes it seem like being an S is easy and oh, anybody can be an S, but being an intuitive is hard.
    Of course they adapt sometimes, but there are more Ss (which both statistics & most people's experience will support), so that style (& I mean this in a loose sense) is more the "norm". Of course, this depends on the setting also.

    Some of this is likely the effects of introversion also... I think you hear this more from INxx than Enxx types.

    I'm not going to get all politically correct for people and apologetic and write this off entirely as some flaw of my own. I have tons of Ss in my life that I enjoy and have good conversations with, but there is a clear pattern that of being different when I speak with another N. It doesn't even have to mean we like each other; there's no automatic bond over it.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #104
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What are you waiting for, then? Chop away!
    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Heart over head my girl. I will never give up
    good or no good ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    good or no good ?
    Sounded satisfying, was it as good for you as it was for him?

    edit: or her cant tell with the orange blob type thing
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #106
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What are you waiting for, then? Chop away!
    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Sounded satisfying, was it as good for you as it was for him?

    edit: or her cant tell with the orange blob type thing
    I never fight for satisfaction. I like when split parts form to a greater huge. So are my intentions good or no good ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #107
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Of course they adapt sometimes, but there are more Ss (which both statistics & most people's experience will support), so that style (& I mean this in a loose sense) is more the "norm". Of course, this depends on the setting also.
    What "style?" Somebody always claims that there's this monolithic S style of communication, but I have yet to hear it explained in any way that can't be better explained by some other factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Some of this is likely the effects of introversion also... I think you hear this more from INxx than Enxx types.
    The only communication style differences that are legitimate are explained by the interaction styles (directing/informing, CtC, GtG, IC, BtS.)

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I'm not going to get all politically correct for people and apologetic and write this off entirely as some flaw of my own. I have tons of Ss in my life that I enjoy and have good conversations with, but there is a clear pattern that of being different when I speak with another N. It doesn't even have to mean we like each other; there's no automatic bond over it.
    It isn't about being politically correct. It's about a misapplication of MBTI. How do you *know* that whatever pattern of difference you're detecting is due to the difference between S and N? Doesn't it make more sense, if we're going to try and interpret this kind of shit through the lens of MBTI, to say that the difference is due to functions and function orders rather than S/N? What is this fundamental Sness and Nness that exists after all the differences between Si, Ni, Ne, Se, and the orders in which they appear in each type, are accounted for? Not to mention all of the judging functions...

    I think it's telling that it's always the N/S dichotomy that gets this treatment, and never really any of the others (in fact, all of those sordid Fe/Fi "I hate you" threads would have us think that there are HUGE differences even within one dichotomy. I guess that doesn't apply to Se, Si, Ne, Ni?)
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  8. #108
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What "style?" Somebody always claims that there's this monolithic S style of communication, but I have yet to hear it explained in any way that can't be better explained by some other factor.
    Um, reread what I said.... I said style in a "loose sense". I said that with the purpose of denoting there is not some "monolithic" style.

    If sensing means a preference for focusing on tangible information and facts and intuition means a focus on intangible possibilities & relations between things, and that this affects thinking and personality, then why shouldn't it affect aspects of communication?


    The only communication style differences that are legitimate are explained by the interaction styles (directing/informing, CtC, GtG, IC, BtS.)
    I disagree. I think there are communication differences with the T/F dichotomy, the I/E dichotomy, and even with differing attitudes of the same function (ie. Fe/Fi). These are noted in MBTI literature when it comes to discussing romantic and business relationships.

    People note these all the time on this board too... Few get offended at the notion that Feeling types might prefer more sensitive styles, etc.

    The MBTI tests even use questions which refer to communication - such as preferring a diplomatic style (F) over a direct, blunt style (T). They often clumsily word this as being nice vs. honest, but that's what they're getting at.

    I don't see why the S/N difference should be so offensive to people. I think it's because Ss are taking it as some slight against them, as if people are saying they're inferior or less interesting. That is not what is being said, not by me anyway.

    It isn't about being politically correct. It's about a misapplication of MBTI. How do you *know* that whatever pattern of difference you're detecting is due to the difference between S and N?
    Well this illustrates it perfectly. You want some fact or data, and I'm telling you I'm aware of invisible patterns that can't be measured in some concrete way.

    If you're insinuating I type people based solely on how we communicate - I don't. I also don't chalk up a communication problem with an S as an S/N issue. But there has been a pattern that has emerged with this variable being the constant one. It's a matter of a certain way of talking about things as a whole. It's not about ability/intelligence or anything like that. It's about the focus of the mind & how it manifests in conversation.

    I see other patterns too...such as patterns in how I communicate with, say, an extrovert or a Fe type.

    Doesn't it make more sense, if we're going to try and interpret this kind of shit through the lens of MBTI, to say that the difference is due to functions and function orders rather than S/N? What is this fundamental Sness and Nness that exists after all the differences between Si, Ni, Ne, Se, and the orders in which they appear in each type, are accounted for? Not to mention all of the judging functions...
    S & N ARE functions. There are 4 functions: sensing, intuition, feeling and thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung - Man & His Symbols
    These four function types correspond to the obvious means by which consciousness obtains its orientation to experience. Sensation tells you that something exists; thinking tells you what it is; feeling tells you whether it is agreeable or not; and intuition tells you whence it comes and where it is going
    The cognitive processes are the functions combined with the I/E attitude.
    MBTI tests according to these dichotomies also. So in terms of MBTI, there is an S/N "divide". Sure, Se & Si are different, very different in many ways, but they still share a preference for perceiving "what exists".

    I think it's telling that it's always the N/S dichotomy that gets this treatment, and never really any of the others (in fact, all of those sordid Fe/Fi "I hate you" threads would have us think that there are HUGE differences even within one dichotomy. I guess that doesn't apply to Se, Si, Ne, Ni?)
    Nope, I see it discussed a lot with the T/F & I/E dichotomies. No one gets pissy about it because it's a simple observation. And yes it definitely has been noted with Fe/Fi - communication style differences have been acknowledged and discussed in great detail in those threads. I have been a part of these discussions. It has been an explicit subject in them.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What "style?" Somebody always claims that there's this monolithic S style of communication, but I have yet to hear it explained in any way that can't be better explained by some other factor.



    The only communication style differences that are legitimate are explained by the interaction styles (directing/informing, CtC, GtG, IC, BtS.)



    It isn't about being politically correct. It's about a misapplication of MBTI. How do you *know* that whatever pattern of difference you're detecting is due to the difference between S and N? Doesn't it make more sense, if we're going to try and interpret this kind of shit through the lens of MBTI, to say that the difference is due to functions and function orders rather than S/N? What is this fundamental Sness and Nness that exists after all the differences between Si, Ni, Ne, Se, and the orders in which they appear in each type, are accounted for? Not to mention all of the judging functions...

    I think it's telling that it's always the N/S dichotomy that gets this treatment, and never really any of the others (in fact, all of those sordid Fe/Fi "I hate you" threads would have us think that there are HUGE differences even within one dichotomy. I guess that doesn't apply to Se, Si, Ne, Ni?)
    It does apply. The issue is that there is a giant difference between communication between an Ne-dom/aux and an Ne-tert/inf. The tool of Ne (in this case) is used in a different way by each position. There is more similarly between Ne and Ni than there is between Ne and Se or Ne and Si.

  10. #110
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Well this illustrates it perfectly. You want some fact or data, and I'm telling you I'm aware of invisible patterns that can't be measured in some concrete way.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Um, reread what I said.... I said style in a "loose sense". I said that with the purpose of denoting there is not some "monolithic" style.
    Isn't saying that there is an S style in direct contradiction to saying that there is no monolithic S style? If it's not monolithic, then there is no uniformity among S communicators. And if there's no uniformity, then there is no S style to speak of.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    If sensing means a preference for focusing on tangible information and facts and intuition means a focus on intangible possibilities & relations between things, and that this affects thinking and personality, then why shouldn't it affect aspects of communication?
    First of all, these are very crude definitions. Second, they do affect communication, but not taken in isolation. That's why you could expect to see different types of communication difficulties cropping up between different types, even within the same temperament, and I doubt that these difficulties could be sensibly organized along dichotomy lines. I think they could, however, possibly be organized along functional lines (that is, for instance, Ti-Fe/Te-Fi, or Se-Ti/Si-Te, etc.,)

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    People note these all the time on this board too... Few get offended at the notion that Feeling types might prefer more sensitive styles, etc.
    You've got to be kidding. The Fs on this board always raise some hell about how they're not all sensitive dandies, how they can handle (and even prefer) up-front communication or "blunt" styles, how they can think just as logically as Ts.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't see why the S/N difference should be so offensive to people. I think it's because Ss are taking it as some slight against them, as if people are saying they're inferior or less interesting.
    Imagine that! That would never happen here! Especially not when people are positing the existence of "invisible patterns" that make N/N communication easier than N/S communication without regard or consideration for any other possible (and, in fact, more probable) explanatory factor!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    S & N ARE functions. There are 4 functions: sensing, intuition, feeling and thinking.
    No, Se, Si, Ne, and Ni are functions. S and N are just placeholders that people made up in order to make the easier, cruder dichotomy-based tests.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Nope, I see it discussed a lot with the T/F & I/E dichotomies. No one gets pissy about it because it's a simple observation. And yes it definitely has been noted with Fe/Fi - communication style differences have been acknowledged and discussed in great detail in those threads. I have been a part of these discussions. It has been an explicit subject in them.
    People do get pissy about them, especially the T/F ones (and rightly so, I think, since people say almost equally stupid things about the T/F dichotomy as they do about S/N.) I don't think people get pissy enough about the I/E one, though, since it IS often insinuated that Es are less intelligent than Is (and why wouldn't they, really? I mean, it is an old ass trope in our culture to assume the loud E is dumber than the introspective I.) But that's always mitigated by...guess what...the presence of N! If it's an ENxx, that's slightly better than being an ESxx, because the N makes up for the E.
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