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Logical thinkers and religion

Antimony

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Religion isn't inherently logical. However, religion is not practiced by only illogical members of society.

What makes people religious? Are logical folk more likely to shun religion than those who are more illogical? Or less prone to using logic as their guide?

I'd like to hear opinions and experiences concerning logic and religion.

A better wording (courtesy of [MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION]:

....was arguing is that there's both rational and irrational forms of religion, and people who believe/disbelieve for similar reasons. So what's the distinction between the two and what is the general relationship between rational thought and religion?
 
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Lark

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Religion isn't inherently logical. However, religion is not practiced by only illogical members of society.

What makes people religious? Are logical folk more likely to shun religion than those who are more illogical? Or less prone to using logic as their guide?

I'd like to hear opinions and experiences concerning logic and religion.

I reject your hackneyed logic/rational thinking vs. illogical/irrational religosity dichotomy and also the implicit value judgements.
 

citizen cane

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I reject your hackneyed logic/rational thinking vs. illogical/irrational religosity dichotomy and also the implicit value judgements.

Nowhere did she say that religion is inherently illogical either. I reject your inability to form an incredibly basic coherent argument or analyze such an argument!

There may have been implicit value judgements, yes; But surely, especially as an NT, you recognize that making assumptions detracts from your own credibility where logical matters are concerned.
 

Antimony

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I reject your hackneyed logic/rational thinking vs. illogical/irrational religosity dichotomy and also the implicit value judgements.

Read the post with a little more rationale. I didn't say it was illogical.

You can answer the question or try to logically pick it apart and waste your time. Your choice.
 

Xyk

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I reject your hackneyed logic/rational thinking vs. illogical/irrational religosity dichotomy and also the implicit value judgements.

That's hardly an answer. I think it's a valid assumption that there are contradictions and leaps in logic found with The Bible. Both religious thinking and rational thinking claim to explain exactly everything. If they contradict each other while claiming the same territory, then they are at odds. A dichotomy is a word for what they are.

If we look in the Christian Bible, there are plenty of logical things and plenty of illogical things. There are contradictions. That is a fact. Logic does not support those.

Example:
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

1CO 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)

Clearly there's something illogical here. No context makes that any less contradictory.
 

Lark

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Nowhere did she say that religion is inherently illogical either. I reject your inability to form an incredibly basic coherent argument or analyze such an argument!

There may have been implicit value judgements, yes; But surely, especially as an NT, you recognize that making assumptions detracts from your own credibility where logical matters are concerned.

I dont accept the simplist dichotomy which has been set up there, by engaging with the discussion while it is framed in that way I'm only going to be supporting it.

So rather than do that I choose to point out how it was not in actuality an objective discussion. Now your response is similarly emotive, calling into question my credibility and suggesting that I'm making assumptions when I'm not.

There's so many of you guys who believe that you're being rational who're just exercising a compliance with powerful affects, you're shut off to acknowledging this and instead project it upon others.

Considering that MBTI was an innovation of Jung who was familiar with all these concepts, ie transference, repression, affects, projection etc. I'm always surprised that this is such a big feature on this forum. Religion and politics just bring it out.
 

Lark

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Read the post with a little more rationale. I didn't say it was illogical.

You can answer the question or try to logically pick it apart and waste your time. Your choice.

I'm not wasting anyones time, you begin by saying its not inherently illogical but the implication is that you believe it is in some respect illogical, you then go on to question whether logical thinkers can be religious and whether or not religious people use logic, the implication's clear again, and the dichotomy you've created.

A discussion framed in this way is going to have predetermined outcomes, so rather than accept that, which would be a waste of time, I highlighted what you had done, which at least has a potential to be useful or interesting.

Although if you're going to reject that and substitute the sandbox of your framed debate instead I'll step out.
 

citizen cane

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Anyway, I'm currently reading a book for my bible study group. It is called The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief. I only received it today, but I look forward to reading it, and perhaps reflecting upon it as well as my own thoughts on the forum.
 

Xyk

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Religion isn't inherently logical. However, religion is not practiced by only illogical members of society.

What makes people religious? Are logical folk more likely to shun religion than those who are more illogical? Or less prone to using logic as their guide?

I'd like to hear opinions and experiences concerning logic and religion.

Religion, in some ways, IS inherently illogical. It demands a suspension of disbelief. People who think logically have a harder time accepting that, and are generally less religious than people who think less logically. If they were resistant to use logic as their guide, they would, by definition, be less logical people.
 

Antimony

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[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION]No, I am not implying that it is illogical.

I think that you, like so many religious people I know, are prepared to be on the offense, and to discuss how 'logical' your religion is, or how you are 'logical' and expect me to attack it.

I am not.

I asked a simple question concerning correlations. You need not attack the question.

[Also]: I'd like to say that I am not taking sides for it being inherently illogical. Not yet.

Religion isn't inherently logical. Nor is it inherently illogical. However, religion is not practiced by only illogical members of society. Implying that you can be logical and practice religion

What makes people religious? Are logical folk more likely to shun religion than those who are more illogical? (A question I wish for people to answer) Or less prone to using logic as their guide?

I'd like to hear opinions and experiences concerning logic and religion.
 

Antimony

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in·her·ent/inˈhi(ə)rənt/
Adjective:
Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute: "inherent dangers".
Vested in (someone) as a right or privilege: "the president's inherent power".
Synonyms:
innate - inborn - native - intrinsic

I think that there are inherently logical and illogical aspects to religion.
 

Rasofy

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Quick answers.
Religion isn't inherently logical.
Check.
However, religion is not practiced by only illogical members of society.
Check.
What makes people religious?
It's more comforting.
Are logical folk more likely to shun religion than those who are more illogical?
With everything being equal, definitely.
or less prone to using logic as their guide?
No; they are logical, they are expected to use logic.
I'd like to hear opinions and experiences concerning logic
:sherlock:
and religion.
:marionette:
 

Siúil a Rúin

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There is also a difference between focusing on working out the logic within a system, and questioning the underlying assumptions of a system. There are a great many systems of thought, religious, political, or philosophical that have a lot of internally logical connections based on a given set of assumptions. A logical thinker can master the system without questioning its foundational assumptions. Ideologies of all sorts are constructed with strong internal logic with unquestioned assumptions. This is what makes them so powerful because the person subscribing to it can reach a point of thinking that internal logic of a system itself validates the foundational assumptions. That is a false assumption - the most perfect system can be based on false premises and therefore not map to reality at all. So much damage has been done with this thinking especially in the 20th century, but it is the way that a logical mind can believe just about anything.

This is meant to be a neutral post not implying a conclusion about which systems have flawed assumptions.
 
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I think it's illogical (hah) to assume that people are 100% logical or 100% illogical. Generally illogical people surely make logical decisions sometimes, and vice-versa. When logical people believe something illogical, it's probably because of emotion or passion. Religion would surely qualify.

Also, as the OP pointed out, religion is not devoid of logic. There are many scientists who find that science does not dispute religion.
 
A

A window to the soul

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Anyway, I'm currently reading a book for my bible study group. It is called The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief. I only received it today, but I look forward to reading it, and perhaps reflecting upon it as well as my own thoughts on the forum.
By Francis Collins. I just found it over at Amazon. Sounds interesting. :)

I think it's illogical (hah) to assume that people are 100% logical or 100% illogical. Generally illogical people surely make logical decisions sometimes, and vice-versa. When logical people believe something illogical, it's probably because of emotion or passion. Religion would surely qualify.

Also, as the OP pointed out, religion is not devoid of logic. There are many scientists who find that science does not dispute religion.
I echo what you said there.
 
S

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FWIW: I think what [MENTION=7197]Antimony[/MENTION] was arguing is that there's both rational and irrational forms of religion, and people who believe/disbelieve for similar reasons. So what's the distinction between the two and what is the general relationship between rational thought and religion? Is this roughly close to what you meant?
 

Antimony

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FWIW: I think what [MENTION=7197]Antimony[/MENTION] was arguing is that there's both rational and irrational forms of religion, and people who believe/disbelieve for similar reasons. So what's the distinction between the two and what is the general relationship between rational thought and religion? Is this roughly close to what you meant?

/shame

Yes, he who words better than I.
 
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