Logical thinkers and religion

[Antimony]

[MENTION=8543]Nerd Girl[/MENTION]

-I did read the bible. I just wish for you to provide a general framework for why you believe what you do.

-I'm sorry for asking for clarification, I did not realize it would offend you so. I wasn't denying the assumption someone made about you and your flexibility was fact. I was stating it so I could make sure I was understanding where you were coming from.

-Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? How can anyone believe that anything is true but that after reading it?

-People are clinging to you because you are asserting what you know to be fact and people are wishing for you to break it down for them. It would be preferable that you do it in your own words rather than talking down to everyone and making us feel bad.

-My point about me being 'more spiritual than young cricket' is you at least implied (and please correct me if I am wrong) that I lacked the proper knowledge to make the assertion that it is just as illogical to say there is no god as to say there is absolutely one. I wish you would not be so condescending.

-You keep asserting I have not read the bible. I have. Out of curiosity, have you read both the Old and New Testament, and do you study one or both?

-My point about Zeus was just because someone feels something, it is not necessarily true.

-Providing a framework for your beliefs should not be quite as complex as calculus. I do not wish for every detail.

-Ah, do you mean the Holy Spirit is in your intuition? You said you felt its presence. Because you wish for me to infer on the information you have given, I gathered you took this as a physical feeling. Is it intuitive?

You would do well to not talk down to people here. I am not saying your beliefs are not credible, but you take away from your credibility when you talk down to people.

Also, when you say faith is a personal choice, that makes it seem like you simply choose the faith. There is nothing wrong with that. However, making the conscious choice to believe something does not make it fact, necessarily.

It looks very un-respectable to talk the way you have been. We would all very much appreciate that you stopped talking down to us.

 

[reason]

Antimony,

So what you're saying is that theistic beliefs are not inherently irrational. Some theists are rational and some atheists are irrational. I agree. Rationality is not a property of beliefs, but rather the process of belief formation. A rational is someone who holds all their positions open to criticism, a person who is interested in discovering truth, whatever it may be, and a person mindful of their own fallibility. This vision of a rationalist obviously does not preclude being a theist. By such reckoning, some theists are irrational, but so are many atheists. Attempts to brand one or the other inherently irrational is a strategy meant to illigitmise opponents rather than a truth-seeking argument.

 

[Antimony]

Antimony,

So what you're saying is that theistic beliefs are not inherently irrational. Some theists are rational and some atheists are irrational. I agree. Rationality is not a property of beliefs, but rather the process of belief formation. A rational is someone who holds all their positions open to criticism, a person who is interested in discovering truth, whatever it may be, and a person mindful of their own fallibility. This vision of a rationalist obviously does not preclude being a theist. By such reckoning, some theists are irrational, but so are many atheists. Attempts to brand one or the other inherently irrational is a strategy meant to illigitmise opponents rather than a truth-seeking argument.

Yes. Thank you for this post.

I enjoy a nice debate to seek the truth. I think that believing things are constant is irrational. Human history has shown many changes in belief over time. Some things are more likely to remain true than others, but if presented with contradicting evidence, I believe it is important to take this into consideration.

Who likes to live a lie just to be comfortable or to be right? I guess it works for some people.

 

[A window to the soul]

[MENTION=8543]Nerd Girl[/MENTION]

-I did read the bible. I just wish for you to provide a general framework for why you believe what you do.

-I'm sorry for asking for clarification, I did not realize it would offend you so. I wasn't denying the assumption someone made about you and your flexibility was fact. I was stating it so I could make sure I was understanding where you were coming from.

-Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? How can anyone believe that anything is true but that after reading it?

-People are clinging to you because you are asserting what you know to be fact and people are wishing for you to break it down for them. It would be preferable that you do it in your own words rather than talking down to everyone and making us feel bad.

-My point about me being 'more spiritual than young cricket' is you at least implied (and please correct me if I am wrong) that I lacked the proper knowledge to make the assertion that it is just as illogical to say there is no god as to say there is absolutely one. I wish you would not be so condescending.

-You keep asserting I have not read the bible. I have. Out of curiosity, have you read both the Old and New Testament, and do you study one or both?

-My point about Zeus was just because someone feels something, it is not necessarily true.

-Providing a framework for your beliefs should not be quite as complex as calculus. I do not wish for every detail.

-Ah, do you mean the Holy Spirit is in your intuition? You said you felt its presence. Because you wish for me to infer on the information you have given, I gathered you took this as a physical feeling. Is it intuitive?

You would do well to not talk down to people here. I am not saying your beliefs are not credible, but you take away from your credibility when you talk down to people.

Also, when you say faith is a personal choice, that makes it seem like you simply choose the faith. There is nothing wrong with that. However, making the conscious choice to believe something does not make it fact, necessarily.

It looks very un-respectable to talk the way you have been. We would all very much appreciate that you stopped talking down to us.

I apologize for hurting your feelings. Please accept that my faith in God is beyond your understanding, just as I accept your lack of fath in God is beyond my understanding.

End of discussion.

 

[Antimony]

I apologize for hurting your feelings. Please accept that my faith in God is beyond your understanding, just as I accept your lack of fath in God is beyond my understanding.

End of discussion.

I believe there is a god.

I whole heartedly accept your faith in god, just not the fact that you think that choosing to believe can be broken down with logic. God is, to me, an intuitive thing, rather than a rational, fully understandable thing.

I think that trying to break down whatever god is is like giving crayons to a 4 year old and telling them to draw the Mona Lisa as a replacement.

 

[A window to the soul]

Guess what? I agree with you entirely on that. I think most people would agree with that.

Thank you.

But the insinuation is that you don't want to be challenged.

I don't mind being challenged when people 'get it' and appear to at least try to understand my point of view. I'm not getting the impression that any of the folks challenging me are sincere and some thrive on creating confusion.

We're going in circles now. What I've stated in this thread, makes perfect sense to those who are born again Christians. Thinker, feeler; young, old; logical, illogical; it's irrelevant when it comes to faith and religion. Ultimately, faith is a choice.

God is a spirit. Christians have born again spirits because they have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. If you are not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand spiritual things because your spirit is dead. I'm not saying that to disrespect or talk down to you. I'm saying that from personal experience having been there; I know what before and after is like.

I have nothing more to say in this thread. PM me if you are sincere.

 

[Mole]

You still have yet to say whether you believe the Bible is 100%, literally true; that isn't so hard, now is it? Especially for someone with faith.

I was reading the last book of the Bible called, "Revelations", the other day, and I was struck by how well it is written and yet seemed to bear no relation to reality.

 

[A window to the soul]

I was reading the last book of the Bible called, "Revelations", the other day, and I was struck by how well it is written and yet seemed to bear no relation to reality.

Of course not. It's a book of prophecy. It's future.



Edit: [MENTION=3325]Victor[/MENTION], Most of it is symbolic; for instance, the black horse is death and the red horse is war. I think it is the hardest book to understand.

[MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION], No, I don't interpret everything in the Bible as literal.​

 

[Antimony]

I don't mind being challenged when people 'get it' and appear to at least try to understand my point of view. I'm not getting the impression that any of the folks challenging me are sincere and some thrive on creating confusion.

I think most people find it to be a waste of time to create confusion on this subject. It is confusing enough as it is. I am sincere. I know that wasn't directed to me, but it applies.

We're going in circles now. What I've stated in this thread, makes perfect sense to those who are born again Christians. Thinker, feeler; young, old; logical, illogical; it's irrelevant when it comes to faith and religion. Faith is a choice.

Thank you. Use of logic is irrelevant in religion.

I disagree- I think that god would frown upon someone believing him because they are acting as sheep. But no matter.

 

[Mole]

Never Born

...makes perfect sense to those who are born again Christians.

You have the advantage of me, dear Nerd Girl, for I haven't even been born once, never mind twice.

For I am a Caesar, my mother never gave birth, but rather I was taken from her womb before birth could even take place.

So even if I were born in the Spirit, it would be my first birth, rather than being born again.

 

[Orangey]

This discussion causes good oldfashioned Ti headache ... Please think of the children!

For real. This is turning into the doublethink thread.

 

[Coriolis]

Okay, how about please go back to the bridge where you came from. Will that do?

BTW, hi troll! Remember when you replied to me in the harlot thread with a bunch of nonsense and ended it with, "[MENTION=10757]Nicodemus[/MENTION] this is all?"

I guess you didn't learn your lesson the first time I sent you crawling back to your bridge.

Heh, this ought to be fun...

Funny, I was thinking the same about you. I saw no more from you on the "Harlot" thread beyond your feeble attempt at parting insults. In this thread, I had thought you were behaving with more maturity and civility, and I responded accordingly. I am not the one spouting nonsense here. That has been your contribution, though I have resisted calling it so out of courtesy, giving you as much benefit of the doubt as I can. Since you seem so intrigued by my aside to Nicodemus, I will tell you simply that it was my way, since his wall is turned off, to decline a suggestion he made in a rep regarding the thread. You, of course, are free to spin it into whatever delusion suits your present fancy.

I have learned more from you than you may think. It is seldom in my daily life that I meet people who cling to a set of religious views and "supporting" texts with so little ability to analyze and explain them. Your replies to me and others will help me cut to the chase in future encounters of this kind, hopefully resulting in a more enlightening discussion.

I am not sure why you seem so defensive on this topic. Perhaps you feel you are not doing your part as a good Christian if you are not taking some "heat" for your beliefs. I have never tried to persuade you to abandon Christianity, though, or to discount the Bible, or to turn your back on Jesus. In fact, I have consistently affirmed the value of all three. Just because Christianity is not the way for me (and I assure you, it isn't), doesn't mean it is wrong for you or others, or even that I have nothing to learn from it. I just find it disappointing and unfortunate when someone has so little ability or willingness to make a coherent case for their beliefs. I have known several Christians who do so admirably, and expect the same of me. We don't convert each other; that is never the intention. We do learn, and end up understanding each other better.

If you are not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand spiritual things because your spirit is dead.

This says it all.

 

[A window to the soul]

Funny, I was thinking the same about you. I saw no more from you on the "Harlot" thread beyond your feeble attempt at parting insults. In this thread, I had thought you were behaving with more maturity and civility, and I responded accordingly. I am not the one spouting nonsense here. That has been your contribution, though I have resisted calling it so out of courtesy, giving you as much benefit of the doubt as I can. Since you seem so intrigued by my aside to Nicodemus, I will tell you simply that it was my way, since his wall is turned off, to decline a suggestion he made in a rep regarding the thread. You, of course, are free to spin it into whatever delusion suits your present fancy.

I have learned more from you than you may think. It is seldom in my daily life that I meet people who cling to a set of religious views and "supporting" texts with so little ability to analyze and explain them. Your replies to me and others will help me cut to the chase in future encounters of this kind, hopefully resulting in a more enlightening discussion.

I am not sure why you seem so defensive on this topic. Perhaps you feel you are not doing your part as a good Christian if you are not taking some "heat" for your beliefs. I have never tried to persuade you to abandon Christianity, though, or to discount the Bible, or to turn your back on Jesus. In fact, I have consistently affirmed the value of all three. Just because Christianity is not the way for me (and I assure you, it isn't), doesn't mean it is wrong for you or others, or even that I have nothing to learn from it. I just find it disappointing and unfortunate when someone has so little ability or willingness to make a coherent case for their beliefs. I have known several Christians who do so admirably, and expect the same of me. We don't convert each other; that is never the intention. We do learn, and end up understanding each other better.

This says it all.

Interesting perception, more deception. Poor thing. What do you want now? a bandaid? a compass? sympathy?

I will pray 4 you. <3

You have the advantage of me, dear Nerd Girl, for I haven't even been born once, never mind twice.

For I am a Caesar, my mother never gave birth, but rather I was taken from her womb before birth could even take place.

So even if I were born in the Spirit, it would be my first birth, rather than being born again.

You're very clever with words! I heart that.

 

[Rasofy]

You're very clever with words!

 

[Sparrow]

Only parts of the bible are literal, a lot of it is purely metaphorical. Do most Christians know this? Just wondering...

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

There are logical thinkers adhering to various ideologies. Religions that have a history of philosophical writings and that attempt to create a complete sense of reality would have more appeal to a logical thinker. It is difficult to create a large-scale system of thought without some logical basis for organizing its ideas.

Some religions are specifically anti-logical and focus on present emotional responses as the source of insight and truth. They may rely on the more analytical works of other religions to create some of their underlying assumptions, but in the actual practice of the religion there is a fairly strong rejection of logical or analytical thought.

The religion that I was extensively steeped in for years was a newer one, but one that made an attempt at explaining every detail. They had extensive writings and commentaries that explained every single verse in the Bible referring back to the original Greek and Hebrew, etc. This did not produce a consistent logic, but does demonstrate that value is placed on being able to make a reasoned case for a conclusion.

The intermingling of reason and impulse can create a complex and unstable system. As a quick observation you can guesstimate how much a religion relies on logic in its method of dealing with conflict. If someone dissents in their beliefs, do they get out the writings and make a reasoned case, or do they socially and emotionally punish the person who is dissenting. The manipulation tactics that a person uses from inside a religion tells you the method of control place upon them to remain in the group. If the religion relies strongly on insider/outsider definitions that make outsiders dangerous, bad, dead inside, untrustworthy, then that system relies on coercion and not reason. If the person inside the religion is a great and wonderful person until they start talking about God, and then an arrogance and meanness overtakes them, that also tells you that their system is influenced by control tactics and not reason. The concept of God becomes a metaphor for that sense of social control and domination. If the topic of God lifts the person up to have a deeper sense of empathy, a greater compassion and comprehension of humanity, than that is also very telling because in that case God is a metaphor for, or even the original source of, insight.

 

[Ginkgo]

I was reading the last book of the Bible called, "Revelations", the other day, and I was struck by how well it is written and yet seemed to bear no relation to reality.

 

[A window to the soul]

Only parts of the bible are literal, a lot of it is purely metaphorical. Do most Christians know this? Just wondering...

Yes.

 

[Antimony]

I find it ironic that [MENTION=8543]Nerd Girl[/MENTION] has one of America's most iconic sex symbols, if not the most iconic.

 

[Mole]

Ears

You're very clever with words! I heart that.

My words are only matched by your clever ears.

As the only one more important than a good writer is a good reader.

So dear Nerd Girl, lend me your ears every now and then and bring my words to life.