Logical thinkers and religion

[Ginkgo]

I have no doubt about what I feel. And it even goes beyond that, it's a knowing.

I'm in a room with a view of heaven too.

If you know xyz then faith in xyz isn't necessary. Are you sure?

 

[Nicodemus]

You are wrong. I know with 100% certainty.

How do you know that what you feel is god's presence? How can you be sure that it cannot be something else? Please note that "I just do" would beg the question.

I know with 100% certainty.

In your case that does not seem to mean much:

It's possible I'm brainwashed. I have logically accepted God and the Bible as truth. [...] We don't require concrete evidence as every piece to a puzzle be perfectly in place to KNOW something. Intuition is experienced as a KNOWING. I understand that doesn't necessarily make what I 'know' true, which is why I remain open and flexible as I receive new information.

 

[A window to the soul]

If you know xyz then faith in xyz isn't necessary. Are you sure?

According to the Bible, "faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." (Hebrews 11:1).

I walk by faith. Yes, I'm sure.

Many would consider the claim of any knowledge with 100% certainty illogical. What exactly do you mean when you say you "know"? Do you mean that your perception of God is a true representation of the universe and everyone who disagrees is wrong?

Intuition. Faith. As an ENTP, Intuition is the language I speak.

When Carl Jung was asked during a 1959 BBC interview if he believed in the existence of God, Jung replied, "I don't believe, I KNOW".

Carl Jung said the following in the 1930's at a college seminar:
"The truth is this, I have had the experience of being gripped by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God. So, I will never say that I believe that God exists. I must say I KNOW God exists!"

In Carl Jung's theory of the ego, described in 1921 in Psychological Types, intuition was an "irrational function", opposed most directly by sensation, and opposed less strongly by the "rational functions" of thinking and feeling. Jung defined intuition as "perception via the unconscious": using sense-perception only as a starting point, to bring forth ideas, images, possibilities, ways out of a blocked situation, by a process that is mostly unconscious.

Jung said that a person in whom intuition was dominant, an "intuitive type", acted not on the basis of rational judgment but on sheer intensity of perception.

How do you know that what you feel is god's presence?
How can you be sure that it cannot be something else? Please note that "I just do" would beg the question.

I am free. I have peace that surpasses all understanding. I have no doubts or fears about my faith. I feel love for even you. The void inside is completely filled. He carries me through the hardest times in my life. I am never alone.

Like Jung, I had the experience of being gripped by something that is stronger than myself. God changed me in a moment. My life has never been the same.

In your case that does not seem to mean much:

The intuition comment that you quoted from me was actually part of Jung quotes I read regarding belief in God.

 

[Nicodemus]

I am free. I have joy that surpasses all understanding. I have no doubts. I have no fears. I feel love for even you. The void inside is completely filled. [Something] carries me through the hardest times in my life. I am never alone.

Not surprisingly, that was "I just do" in a few more words.

Like Jung, I had the experience of being gripped by something that is stronger than myself. God changed me in a moment. My life has never been the same.

You can see the error here: "[...] something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God." Jung goes from the first something, basically an internal experience, to the second something, an external being. It is an abductive inference that only makes sense if one presupposes that there is a god and that this god acts in ways that may be experienced by someone like him in the way in which he experienced something.

You may think that god is the best explanation for what you feel because you do presuppose these things, but even then your god is not the only explanation. It might be Manitou, Zeus or the Great Green Arkleseizure. You cannot and you do not know.

Thanks for playing.

The intuition comment that you quoted from me was actually part of Jung's theory regarding belief in God.

Wonderful. That changes absolutely nothing.

 

[A window to the soul]

In your case that does not seem to mean much:

Perhaps something got lost in translation. I was responding to [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION]'s comment where he said, "I have a theory that you've been belt spanked to the point of brainwashing."
That was one of several disrespectful comments I received in that thread. So when I said, "it's possible I'm brainwashed..." in response, I was validating Rasofy's opinion as a reasonable consideration; I could see why he might say that since he hasn't walked a mile in my shoes. I also understand he didn't intend any disrespect. My consideration, didn't change the fact that I'm 100% confident that God exists. You have not gone where I've been. You have not experienced what I've experienced. As Ne-Ti would have it, regardless of what I know, I remain flexible and open to information and truth.

Thanks for playing.

I'm not playing games with you today.

 

[Xyk]

...regardless of what I think I know or how confident I am, I absolutely remain flexible to new information and the truth about everything.

This part makes no sense. Absolute confidence means zero flexibility. If you think that there is a 100% chance that god exists as you imagine him, then there is a 0% chance that your feeling is a result of anything else. I don't know what you're trying to say here.

 

[Nicodemus]

Perhaps something got lost in translation. I was responding to [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION]'s comment where he said, "I have a theory that you've been belt spanked to the point of brainwashing."
That was one of several disrespectful comments I received in that thread. So when I said, "it's possible I'm brainwashed..." in response, I was validating Rasofy's opinion as a reasonable consideration; I could see why he might say that since he hasn't walked a mile in my shoes. I also understand he didn't intend any disrespect. That didn't change the fact that I'm still 100% confident that God exists. You have not gone where I've been. You have not experienced what I've experienced. Yes, as Ne-Ti would have it, regardless of what I think I know or how confident I am, I absolutely remain flexible to new information and the truth (about everything).

Good. Then we agree that in your case 'I know with 100% certainty' does not mean more than 'my best guess at the moment'.

 

[A window to the soul]

Good. Then we agree that in your case 'I know with 100% certainty' does not mean more than 'my best guess at the moment'.

That does not bring justice to the truth of what God has done in my life; my experiences are real.

This part makes no sense. Absolute confidence means zero flexibility. If you think that there is a 100% chance that god exists as you imagine him, then there is a 0% chance that your feeling is a result of anything else. I don't know what you're trying to say here.

That's not correct. I clearly stated where I stand.

 

[Rasofy]

I gave up trying to convince people Gods don't exist. As long as they are happy this way (and not killing people in name of their God), it's probably for their best. Cypher (Matrix) knows it better:

''Hey, that's disrespectful and/or judgemental''
It is just how Rasofy views it. Sometimes truth hurts.

 

[Qlip]

Hah, so much smug self-satisfaction in this thread. On both sides.

 

[Xyk]

That's not correct. I clearly stated where I stand.

Do you have absolute certainty or do you have flexibility? It is impossible to have both. They are at odds. Either you know something for sure or you accept that new information might change your mind.

 

[Nicodemus]

That does not bring justice to the truth of what God has done in my life; my experiences are real.

Of course your experiences are real. They just have nothing to do with a god.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I think it's illogical (hah) to assume that people are 100% logical or 100% illogical. Generally illogical people surely make logical decisions sometimes, and vice-versa. When logical people believe something illogical, it's probably because of emotion or passion. Religion would surely qualify.

Also, as the OP pointed out, religion is not devoid of logic. There are many scientists who find that science does not dispute religion.

Thank you.

 

[A window to the soul]

Of course your experiences are real. They just have nothing to do with a god.

Prove it. And prove there's no God while you're at it.

Do you have absolute certainty or do you have flexibility? It is impossible to have both. They are at odds. Either you know something for sure or you accept that new information might change your mind.

No, not impossible. I have both.

 

[redacted]

Intuition. Faith. As an ENTP, Intuition is the language I speak.

When Carl Jung was asked during a 1959 BBC interview if he believed in the existence of God, Jung replied, "I don't believe, I KNOW".

Carl Jung said the following in the 1930's at a college seminar:
"The truth is this, I have had the experience of being gripped by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God. So, I will never say that I believe that God exists. I must say I KNOW God exists!"

So just to clarify, "know" in this sense basically means "it feels like the truth"? If so, I have no problem with your stance. Feeling like something is the truth and being 100% certain you feel that way is different than believing something is an accurate representation of external reality with 100% certainty.

 

[Xyk]

No, not impossible. I have both.

How? Simply saying THAT you have something means absolutely nothing in a conversation. That's like saying I am made of 100% water, but I also include some other things in my composition. There are only one hundred percents. Open-mindedness and uncertainty are the same thing in this context. Also in all other contexts.

Other example: I do not like broccoli. If offered broccoli, I can either keep an open mind, (meaning I accept that there is a possibility, however low, that I will like it this time), or I can stand by my previous belief. There are no other options here. I'm not sure how I can make this extremely simple principle of logic any clearer.

 

[Nicodemus]

Prove it.

That is merely the conclusion I draw from your inability to explain how you know that your experiences are a result of god's presence.

And prove there's no God while you're at it.

If you can give me a definition of 'god' that is actually composed of meaningful words, I might be able to prove that god does not exist.

 

[A window to the soul]

So just to clarify, "know" in this sense basically means "it feels like the truth"? If so, I have no problem with your stance. Feeling like something is the truth and being 100% certain you feel that way is different than believing something is an accurate representation of external reality with 100% certainty.

No. I wouldn't describe intuition like that without further clarification because it's misleading. Intuition is not feeling. They are two different functions; two different modes of consciousness. Feeling is rational and evaluates values. Intuition is irrational and is an experience which is immediately given to consciousness.

Intuition does not arise through mental activity like feeling does. It's more like gut instincts where one gathers information and perceives/knows the truth (as seen in patterns). I experience it as a knowing.

Simply saying THAT you have something means absolutely nothing in a conversation. That's like saying I am made of 100% water, but I also include some other things in my composition. There are only one hundred percents. Open-mindedness and uncertainty are the same thing in this context. Also in all other contexts.

Other example: I do not like broccoli. If offered broccoli, I can either keep an open mind, (meaning I accept that there is a possibility, however low, that I will like it this time), or I can stand by my previous belief. There are no other options here. I'm not sure how I can make this extremely simple principle of logic any clearer.

Not accurate. I see where you're going with your clever connotations and I have no interest in going with you off that cliff. -yawns-

Back on topic.

 

[Xyk]

Not accurate denotations, silly. I see where you're going with your clever connotations and I have no interest in going with you off that cliff. -yawns-

Honestly, if you don't mean what I've said, I have no idea what you mean by saying that you are both certain and open-minded. I don't mind if you believe in whatever deities make you happy so long as you don't hurt anyone with that belief. I really just want to know how you can be 100% certain AND allow the possibility that new information can change your mind. There is no denotation, connotation, or context that will make that little piece of what you said make any sense. Please say words that are not "because I do".

Also, I'm pretty sure Evan wasn't talking about the Feeling function, but the general term.

 

[Antimony]

Religion is not inherently illogical either. And I will need some examples of "illogical members of society."

Do I need to baby you guys and add in it isn't inherently illogical either? I think I must.