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  1. #71
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    These are excellent points. And yes for me it was a total reset and a painful one. Despite the fact that I am an otherwise decent, charitable, and productive member of society, I have still failed at life and personhood for having rejected religious dogma in the eyes of some of the nearest and dearest to me. That this one issue can override any other admirable quality in my person because their dogma serves as a greater narrative on my character than their personal knowledge of it, hurts, disappoints, and angers me.

    Any belief system centered around granting moral assessments of your peers (which gives people leave to commit all manner of horrors) from a 2000+ year old textual compilation that discounts and rewrites your own observations about them is absurd and corrupt.

    I'd like to add that conclusions are where we arrive at, not depart from.
    Dont be sad. The greatest people of history were always loners. I know thats not very comforting but what those people who said that didnt know was the internet. And nowadays loners can find each others and unite against stupidity. I have your wing, you did the right thing .
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #72
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Iwakar and Entropie: your comments are right on target.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    When you are raised with this stuff, it's hard to shun your childhood afterwards. People who still do it, tho being raised with the pure belief that God created the Universe, are the most strong to me, because they face the hardest challenge of them all. Its not only about confronting your parents, you basically have to reset your whole upbringing at some point, forget about all of it and create a new ideal for you that still is strong enough that you can believe in it.
    This is what I did. Though eventually I came around to belief in deity, it was my own belief, not something foisted on me by others, and quite different from anything I grew up with. I had to reject all that first. The experience wasn't painful for me, but the in-between years, when I found it hard to believe anything, were very frustrating and spiritually empty.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    The funny thing is, if you raise your kids by showing them all alternative concepts, namely religion and science, you basically automatically raise them to become critical thinkers. And 90% of those childs prolly wont be religious. And then there are those, who may be raised rational and science only but become religious afterwards, because they see a sense in life given thru religion, they would miss otherwise. Those ones are the real religious people to me. The rest are only parrots.
    I'm not sure about the 90%. Even absent a religious upbringing, the idea of god is just too pervasive, in society, in literature, art and public discourse. I suspect the majority of people raised to be critical thinkers will still develop spiritual faith, but it will be much more individual, rational/consistent, and possibly outside formal religious organizations. I know a few people who are open-minded, logical critical thinkers and have spiritual faith. They seem far more secure in their faith (and respectful of others' beliefs) than the many who blindly follow some established religion. These last often seem to cling to faith almost out of fear and desperation rather than wonder, as if shifting to examine it too closely will cause them to lose their grip and fall.

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    These are excellent points. And yes for me it was a total reset and a painful one. Despite the fact that I am an otherwise decent, charitable, and productive member of society, I have still failed at life and personhood for having rejected religious dogma in the eyes of some of the nearest and dearest to me. That this one issue can override any other admirable quality in my person because their dogma serves as a greater narrative on my character than their personal knowledge of it, hurts, disappoints, and angers me.
    Sad, isn't it, and quite counterproductive. I can't help but think this is not what Jesus himself would do. I often see far more "Christian" behavior from non-believers.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Dont be sad. The greatest people of history were always loners. I know thats not very comforting but what those people who said that didnt know was the internet. And nowadays loners can find each others and unite against stupidity. I have your wing, you did the right thing .
    Absolutely.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    As far as I can tell, barring direct communications with the divine, you've determined all of this to be fact based on a multi-authored book...
    based on a multi-authored collection of manuscripts
    based on a multi-authored collection of scrolls
    I also feel God's presence and it feels tangible to me.

    based on an oral tradition...
    I do not belong to any churches or religions. For clarification, I do not consider the Bible religion. Religion is man-made.

    In keeping with my agnosticism, I don't think it's fair to expect believers such as yourself to suffer righteousness and certainty in non-believers, but pardoning their skepticism of yours seems perfectly reasonable.
    I'm human. I was also skeptish once. With regard to personal beliefs, I accept people as they are.

    "There is no one righteous, not even one," (Romans 3:10).

    "For by grace we have been saved through faith that's not our own, it is a gift of God, and not by works, lest anyone should boast," (Ephesians 2:8-9).

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    I wonder how many non-believers Christianity creates by discouraging critical analysis. Possibly more than the default godlessness that would persist if we were born orphaned on an island in a sensory deprivation chamber.
    Christianity doesn't discourage critical analysis; people and religion do.

    For people born on remote islands without a Bible, I don't know. I know God is fair toward mankind, He has bestowed common grace to the believer and unbeliever alike. Romans teaches that God will judge people on what they know and are capable of knowing.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I also feel God's presence and it feels tangible to me.
    No, you feel something. Then you give it a name that fits your world view.

  5. #75
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    The distinction between logical and illogical people is something that should be expanded upon. Should we evaluate a persons logicality based on each potential internal consistency in their narrative (their logicality would be 1-(number of inconsistencies)/(number of possible inconsistencies))? Or should we weight the possible inconsistencies based on their importance in the narrative? If so, how would we determine the values of the weights? Is someone who has fewer inconsistencies percentagewise more logical than someone else if their fundamental assumptions are fishy or convoluted? How would we know how valid their assumptions are anyway?

    Logic is not a worldview. It is a means of evaluating consistency. Logic does nothing with no premises. You can feed it any premise from any worldview and all it will say is whether or not that premise is consistent with other premises you feed it.

    I personally think most prototypical religious views would fail many logic tests I could come up with, but so would most prototypical non-religious views. People generally don't dedicate that much processing power to internal consistency, and for good reason -- internal consistency doesn't help with truth if your premises are faulty -- it just isn't computationally economical much of the time. People that want to increase their percentage of consistent beliefs have to work hard, however they want to frame their worldview. You can succeed in this task with religion or without.

    I've just always found it easier to increase consistency/conciseness without religion.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    No, you feel something. Then you give it a name that fits your world view.
    I have no doubt about what I feel. And it even goes beyond that, it's a knowing.

    I'm in a room with a view of heaven too. (:

  7. #77
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I have no doubt about what I feel. And it even goes beyond that, it's a knowing.

    I'm in a room with view of heaven too. (:
    The problem Nico has with your stance (I'm assuming) is that people that are wrong about things often feel they KNOW they are right. Therefore the feeling of knowing doesn't help validate or refute beliefs and should be left out of a discussion meant to do just that.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I have no doubt about what I feel. And it even goes beyond that, it's a knowing.
    There is no way for you to know that what you feel is god's presence. The feeling does not come with a name tag.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    The problem Nico has with your stance (I'm assuming) is that people that are wrong about things often feel they KNOW they are right. Therefore the feeling of knowing doesn't help validate or refute beliefs and should be left out of a discussion meant to do just that.
    I'm not here to validate or refute beliefs in God that will prove his existence to you. You're in the wrong thread.

    My feelings and knowing validate MY beliefs, which is what this thread is about; our individual beliefs.

    To me, my beliefs are Biblical, logical, and realized. They are not up for debate. They prove that a logical thinker as myself can transcend that which is logical to another person that doesn't believe in God or religion. That's what this thread is about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    There is no way for you to know that what you feel is god's presence. The feeling does not come with a name tag.
    You are wrong. I know with 100% certainty.

  10. #80
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    To me, my beliefs are Biblical, logical, and realized. They are not up for debate. They prove that a logical thinker as myself can transcend that which is logical to another person that doesn't believe in God or religion. That's what this thread is about.
    What does being a logical thinker entail? I think the definition of logical thinker would be the source of potential disagreement about this paragraph.

    You are wrong. I know with 100% certainty.
    Many would consider the claim of any knowledge with 100% certainty illogical. What exactly do you mean when you say you "know"? Do you mean that your perception of God is a true representation of the universe and everyone who disagrees is wrong?

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