User Tag List

First 91718192021 Last

Results 181 to 190 of 205

  1. #181
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,536

    Faith and Reason

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    There are logical thinkers adhering to various ideologies. Religions that have a history of philosophical writings and that attempt to create a complete sense of reality would have more appeal to a logical thinker. It is difficult to create a large-scale system of thought without some logical basis for organizing its ideas.

    Some religions are specifically anti-logical and focus on present emotional responses as the source of insight and truth. They may rely on the more analytical works of other religions to create some of their underlying assumptions, but in the actual practice of the religion there is a fairly strong rejection of logical or analytical thought.

    The religion that I was extensively steeped in for years was a newer one, but one that made an attempt at explaining every detail. They had extensive writings and commentaries that explained every single verse in the Bible referring back to the original Greek and Hebrew, etc. This did not produce a consistent logic, but does demonstrate that value is placed on being able to make a reasoned case for a conclusion.

    The intermingling of reason and impulse can create a complex and unstable system. As a quick observation you can guesstimate how much a religion relies on logic in its method of dealing with conflict. If someone dissents in their beliefs, do they get out the writings and make a reasoned case, or do they socially and emotionally punish the person who is dissenting. The manipulation tactics that a person uses from inside a religion tells you the method of control place upon them to remain in the group. If the religion relies strongly on insider/outsider definitions that make outsiders dangerous, bad, dead inside, untrustworthy, then that system relies on coercion and not reason. If the person inside the religion is a great and wonderful person until they start talking about God, and then an arrogance and meanness overtakes them, that also tells you that their system is influenced by control tactics and not reason. The concept of God becomes a metaphor for that sense of social control and domination. If the topic of God lifts the person up to have a deeper sense of empathy, a greater compassion and comprehension of humanity, than that is also very telling because in that case God is a metaphor for, or even the original source of, insight.
    The doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church is offically based on Faith and Reason.

    This would seem to be exemplory where Religion meets the Enlightenment on an equal footing.

    But alas, as we look closer we find that Faith is a priori, that is, Faith is a gift from God. And then interestingly, reason has the role of making sure catholics don't believe anything unreasonable.

    So in short, Faith and Reason are not on an equal footing, and Faith is privileged.

    And so the struggle between Religion and the Enlightenment continues today, but at least peacefully.

  2. #182
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,575

    Default

    These are thought-provoking comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    There are logical thinkers adhering to various ideologies. Religions that have a history of philosophical writings and that attempt to create a complete sense of reality would have more appeal to a logical thinker. It is difficult to create a large-scale system of thought without some logical basis for organizing its ideas.
    Would it not be more logical to base a religion as much as possible in actual, objective reality rather than in some web of philosophy that attempts to create some reality that might turn out to be quite imaginary?

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Some religions are specifically anti-logical and focus on present emotional responses as the source of insight and truth. They may rely on the more analytical works of other religions to create some of their underlying assumptions, but in the actual practice of the religion there is a fairly strong rejection of logical or analytical thought.
    Can you provide some examples?

    From my own experience, I was raised Catholic. The Catholic Church has an extensive history of religious writing, much of it very poetic, or scholarly, or both. Still, we were taught simply to believe. None of the formidable logic supporting the Church's teachings was ever presented to us. I learned about it mostly in (a very secular) college.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #183
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,904

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    OMGoodness funny!! Are you Jewish? I do not live by the old testament, which is what you are promoting (above). You've taken bits and pieces out of context and proven you don't understand the Bible at all. None of what you just wrote applies to me as a Christian. None of it.
    Since when have Christians dismissed the old Testament? Catholics for example have readings from the Old Testament at masses. Sure, the New Testament is more important but I'm not aware that none of it applies. I recall a series at my church about this which was quite fascinating. They called it the old testament challenge. We read portions of it and learned about it week after week for months. I go to one of the biggest, most influential and well known progressive Christian churches in the United States. There are people who study this stuff and in order to understand it, there is a great deal of context that's important as you stated. Some of it seems crazy without that context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I believe everything in the old testament happened and I think it's an interesting read. However, Christians are not concerned with the old testament: the Jewish Law or the law of Moses (ten commandments) because Jesus fulfilled the law when he was crucified. The old testament taught us that no man can keep the law; it's impossible and those people were under condemnation. The old testament points us to Jesus, and the new testament where there is salvation; no condemnation for those in Christ. The new testament is the gospel of Jesus and the foundation of faith.

    To support what I'm saying, here are the scriptures in the new testament where it's very clear that Christians are not under the old testament Jewish Law or the law of Moses (ten commandments):
    • "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14.
    • "Christians are ”dead to the law." Romans 7:4.
    • "If ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law" Galatians 5:18.
    • "Christians are "delivered from the law." Romans 7:6.
    • "For Christians, the Law is "that which is done away." II Corinthians 3:11.
    • "For Christians, the Law is "that which is abolished." II Corinthians 3:13.
    • "For Christians, Jesus, on the Cross, was "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us." Colossians 2:14.
    • "For Christians, the Law is taken "out of the way" and nailed "to his cross." Colossians 2:14.
    • "When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether." Hebrews 8:13
    • "And after that he said, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. Thus he put an end to the first in order to establish the second." Hebrews 10:9
    • "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." [the law]. Galatians 3:24-25.
    You're right. @guesswho brought up the subject. He was curious about Noah and Moses. I was answering his questions.
    I have never heard anyone say that Christians weren't supposed to follow the 10 commandments and those quotes do not convince me. The 10 commandments are almost common sense. It's not to say that you'll be judged by your compliance with them but someone who would claim to be a Christian but break them repeatedly might be considered something of a hypocrite.

    That's only one small part of the old testament of course.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  4. #184
    A window to the soul
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Since when have Christians dismissed the old Testament? Catholics for example have readings from the Old Testament at masses. Sure, the New Testament is more important but I'm not aware that none of it applies. I recall a series at my church about this which was quite fascinating. They called it the old testament challenge. We read portions of it and learned about it week after week for months. I go to one of the biggest, most influential and well known progressive Christian churches in the United States. There are people who study this stuff and in order to understand it, there is a great deal of context that's important as you stated. Some of it seems crazy without that context.

    I have never heard anyone say that Christians weren't supposed to follow the 10 commandments and those quotes do not convince me. The 10 commandments are almost common sense. It's not to say that you'll be judged by your compliance with them but someone who would claim to be a Christian but break them repeatedly might be considered something of a hypocrite.

    That's only one small part of the old testament of course.
    No sir! We do NOT follow the 10-commandments. We follow the Holy Spirit. God's law is in our hearts - the holy spirit. That's the New Testament. That's the new covenant.

  5. #185
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    8w7 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ????
    Posts
    3,437

    Default

    Thou shalt not kill? Be gone, senseless rules!
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  6. #186
    A window to the soul
    Guest

    Default

    I hope this helps...

    Old Testament = Old Covenant = The Law = 10 Commandments = Condemnation = Judgement
    New Testament = New Covenant = No Law = Holy Spirit = Grace = No Condemnation = No Judgement

    We are not bound to the letter of the Law (10 commandments), not that the Law has any flaws, or is not Good and Perfect, but we are NOT perfect, and our Salvation comes by FAITH in Christ, and NOT our own adherence to the letter of the Law, because according to the Law, "everyone" is already condemned.

    We are saved by FAITH, and our faith produces fruit, our works represent our faith, but none can be saved without Jesus Christ, and none can ever earn or deserve Salvation because we have ALL fallen short of the Glory of God, and we have ALL broken God's Law, for when you break ONE part of the Law, you break the WHOLE Law.

    Once we broke it, the penalty for breaking the Holy Law of God is death, and we who have FAITH in Christ have already died to the Law in Christ when He died for our sins on the cross. He took our penalty of execution upon Himself. Now we are bought by God as servants to righteousness/holiness, not held to account for our sins because we have been PARDONED by God through our FAITH in His Son, our Savior, the Redeemer of the World.

    So we live in a state of GRACE to the best of our ability (through the power of the Holy Spirit), remembering the sacrifice God made for us, while relying on him the entire time, to complete the work He started in us, according to His will and for His Glory, knowing that it is ONLY BY HIS SACRIFICE for us that WE ARE SAVED.

  7. #187
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,130

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    WE ARE SAVED.
    From what?

  8. #188
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Would it not be more logical to base a religion as much as possible in actual, objective reality rather than in some web of philosophy that attempts to create some reality that might turn out to be quite imaginary?
    I was speaking in relative terms. From what I understand the scientific process (especially when operating free of personal ego and social and economic constraints) is humanity's best attempt towards objective and reasoned thinking. Philosophy can veer away from reality more readily, but large scale systems do tend to require some elements of reasoned interrelationships in order to hold together.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Can you provide some examples?

    From my own experience, I was raised Catholic. The Catholic Church has an extensive history of religious writing, much of it very poetic, or scholarly, or both. Still, we were taught simply to believe. None of the formidable logic supporting the Church's teachings was ever presented to us. I learned about it mostly in (a very secular) college.
    On an individual level it can happen in any religion, but in Christian religions it would be those denominations with a focus on being moved by the Holy Spirit as the measure of enlightenment. It would be the ones that focus on individuals being prophetic, speaking in tongues, being moved by the Holy Spirit on impulse to dance, speak, feel, or act in any way. Everything is felt as though the individual is channeling the Holy Spirit or God. If you compose a piece, write a poem, have an idea, it is God who did it and not you. It makes for a complicated sense of humility, because saying it wasn't you seems humble, but to think your song or poem is so great that it is god's work is pretty proud.

    They also use a lot of large-scale group gatherings with highly rhythmic speaking and songs that create really strong group unification in which the individual is dissolved into the whole. It feels intensely exciting and inspiring to them, but none of this uses rational thinking or attempts to create coherency in terms of ideas. Even if someone wants to defend this as having a net-positive result, it is still clear that it is anti-rational, and anti-logical. Those intense forms of group think in mega-church settings increases the overall force of its impulses which do not use reason as an external reference point to moderate extremism, irrationality, and circular forms of justification that can conceivably produce any result including destructive ones.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #189
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Interesting perception, more deception. Poor thing. What do you want now? a bandaid? a compass? sympathy?

    I will pray 4 you. <3
    You're a liar.
    If you are not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand spiritual things because your spirit is dead.
    i realize that both you and i and all others are human beings, flawed and fallible, but i am not sure i understand how non-believers - or believers of other spiritualities - are supposed to reasonably consider and discuss your beliefs when there has been little breakdown of reasoning or text but there are comments like these that do not resonate with love or peace or truth in any religion.

    i do understand what you mean by speaking of dead spirits but i think it is a rather harsh comment nonetheless, even to someone who has been steeped in born-again christian language. i would think it would perhaps be wise to save concepts like that for those who have begun to show more of an interest in the faith, because the implications of those words to someone who does not completely understand their context are very grave.

    Why does everyone cling to me? I'm not the only believer in this thread.
    because you are surprisingly defensive and provocative, and i believe many of us who have been reading this thread have been waiting for more analysis of text and/or history and/or theology, which we can look at through a logical lens, since that is the subject of the thread. fia and corilois' recent posts seem to be more along those lines.

    also because your christianity is not one that we have all heard of before. i don't believe i have ever discussed with someone who shares the same set of viewpoints as you have supported in this thread. this may be because of my physical location and/or personal interests, but it is interesting nonetheless.

    just thought i would add this post because you seem surprised by people's reactions, but it seems relatively clear to me why there have been the responses that there have been.

  10. #190
    A window to the soul
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nerd girl
    WE ARE SAVED.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    From what?
    People normally think of salvation as just being saved from eternal darkness, but it's much more than that. God wants to save you everyday. God wants to save your cirucumstances. God wants to save your emotions from bitterness, unforgiveness, and hatred. God wants to save your mind from stress, worries, cares and the burden of anxiety. God wants to save your finances. God wants to save your body from sickness and disease. Because God loves you. (:

Similar Threads

  1. Extroverted Intuition and Religion
    By SolitaryWalker in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: 02-12-2008, 02:20 AM
  2. Psychology and Religion
    By Kiddo in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 12-30-2007, 02:10 AM
  3. Types and Religion.
    By RealityDeviantPride in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 12-02-2007, 09:54 PM
  4. [NF] NFs and religion
    By Cordiform in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 12-01-2007, 02:15 PM
  5. The Australian Election and Religion
    By darlets in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 11-13-2007, 05:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO