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  1. #131
    Senior Member Xyk's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, where I come from, "absolute" means "absolute". That word means "free from imperfection", and should be used as such. If new information could conceivably change something, then it is not absolute.

    So I guess your answer is that your faith is not absolute, you're just really really sure.
    MBTI: INTP (PNIT if you wanna put it in order of strength.)
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  2. #132
    Senior Member Xyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    So where do you come from? I added to my previous post to help you understand, if you would please reread it.


    lol, you're somethin'. I am absolutely certain God exists. I've already explained why. If you truly want to understand how that's possible, then pray for God to show you, and he will.
    "Absolute" means "unquestionable". It means nothing could possibly change your mind. If you accept that something could conceivably change your mind, then it is, by definition, not absolute. It can be near absolute, sure. 99.99999999999999% confidence is close to absolute, but is not absolute. Will you admit that by my definition of "absolute" (which is also the dictionary's definition), your faith is not absolute, but instead "nearly absolute"?

    I come from a place where words have meaning and we try our best to avoid contradiction in things we say.

    I suppose you could call attachment to facts and reason a sort of rigidity. But I don't know why it would be better to ignore facts and reason. They are the best tools we have for uncovering the secrets of the universe. Arguably the only tools.
    MBTI: INTP (PNIT if you wanna put it in order of strength.)
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    Also, credit for my new avatar goes to this person. I found it on the google.

  3. #133
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl
    If you ever experience God’s word and Spirit, you will understand.
    i just want to point out that this is a gently amusing comment to me because my agnostic INTP father said something rather similar at one funny point, which was along the lines of, i just feel like if you could see things through my mind and know what i know, you would understand that my conclusions are right. which is so very NTPy.

    i think there is a very important distinction between logic being internally and externally coherent. in the system of a religion, many religious beliefs are logical. others may look at it from the outside and say it is illogical because they are looking at external coherency. but if you skip that step - a leap of faith, so to speak - then logic can abound within religion. and i think that is largely how we have logical thinkers who embrace religion - especially if they are raised in a certain religion (primed to endure that leap of faith) or encouraged toward it via some major life experience.

  4. #134
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porcelain Hearts View Post
    My brother, an INTP, turned to Christianity on his own will. The rest of our family are atheists. I always found a rational like him, who's major is in neuroscience, inexplicable to hold certitude grounds of a historic elaborate dogma...
    I suppose faith and history is all that we have of our origin.

    Our views are quite different with morality, I beg to withstand morals were made to test our boundaries, using our identities to discover a true explanation of our inclusive behaviour. He regards morals inherent universally and claims, "you cannot invent colour".
    This. I keep running into arguments over these sorts of things with people. It frustrates me to no end.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  5. #135
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    If you ever experience God’s word and Spirit, you will understand.
    This is kinda interesting. How would I know the difference between experiencing God's word and Spirit and incorrectly interpreting a feeling (not in the MBTI sense) as experiencing God's word and Spirit? If the metric for deciding the legitimacy of the religious experience is my own gut, being correct and incorrect would seem to me to be exactly the same. So if I "understand", I can either be correct or delusional.

    This line of reasoning is why I don't view personal experience of God as evidence for God.

  6. #136
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    This discussion causes good oldfashioned Ti headache ... Please think of the children!
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  7. #137
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Prove it. And prove there's no God while you're at it.
    Can you prove there is a god?

    No, not impossible. I have both.
    I am absolutely certain 2 + 2 = 4. It is indisputable (smart asses, don't even think about it).

    However, I was not entirely certain what my political stance was. It was disputable, malleable, changeable. I was flexible. Because I was uncertain. I was open to new information to change my opinion.

    Very few things I am certain of. Do you think that your belief in god can be challenged and changed?

    I think that saying god does not exist is as illogical as saying he exists is. It also depends on how you define it.

    One of my biggest issues is the lack of impeccable, precise vocabulary in this thread.

    What if someone feels Zeus' presence? Is that valid?

    Ne is not 'feeling stuff' and running with it. That appears to be Ni. Ne Ti breaks things down by logic.

    Saying this is right because it is right has always be a Feeler and Ni sort of thing, based on my observations.

    When you can break god, the christian god, down to it's most basic parts, and say it is rational, I will believe those who think it is entirely rational.

    I just wish people would stop saying that this must exist because something feels that way. Some people feel like the FBI is watching their every move. Some people feel like they are about to die, and they don't. Some people feel like everyone hates them, or thinks they are weird.

    Many times, people have very, very powerful feelings, and when left unchecked, they translate into things like paranoia and faith.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Can you prove there is a god?
    Are you asking me to prove to you God exists? Do I look like God? Anyway, faith doesn't work like that, LOL! Just like life, death to self is a personal journey. I can't do it for you.

    I am absolutely certain 2 + 2 = 4. It is indisputable (smart asses, don't even think about it).
    Yes.

    However, I was not entirely certain what my political stance was. It was disputable, malleable, changeable. I was flexible. Because I was uncertain. I was open to new information to change my opinion.
    I understand. Politicians may stand on a pedestal, but they are human just like we are. They aren't perfect.

    Very few things I am certain of. Do you think that your belief in god can be challenged and changed?
    Challenge me and see; everyone is doing it. Changed? I've been crucified with Christ. I am at the point of no return.

    I think that saying god does not exist is as illogical as saying he exists is. It also depends on how you define it.
    That's a reasonable sentiment regarding those who lack knowledge and understanding of spiritual things.

    One of my biggest issues is the lack of impeccable, precise vocabulary in this thread.
    lol, are you ranting? if you're wanting me to agree with you on all of this, I can't because you apparently zoned out during most of the discussion. It sounds like you just barely skimmed our posts.

    What if someone feels Zeus' presence? Is that valid?
    You'll have to ask the guy that believes in Zeus.

    When you can break god, the christian god, down to it's most basic parts, and say it is rational, I will believe those who think it is entirely rational.
    It is rational.

    I just wish people would stop saying that this must exist because something feels that way. Some people feel like the FBI is watching their every move. Some people feel like they are about to die, and they don't. Some people feel like everyone hates them, or thinks they are weird.

    Many times, people have very, very powerful feelings, and when left unchecked, they translate into things like paranoia and faith.
    Why are you telling me that? I can't relate and don't recall that in this thread.

    Ne is not 'feeling stuff' and running with it. That appears to be Ni. Ne Ti breaks things down by logic.

    Saying this is right because it is right has always be a Feeler and Ni sort of thing, based on my observations.
    Evan asked about it. I don't recall anybody soley justifying their faith based on feelings or what is right. Where in the world did you get that from?

    I corrected @Evan, when he misunderstood that intuition was experienced like a feeling; intuition alone is not rational or feelings; it's instinct.

    Did you read our posts? Okay, I didn't think so, here's a refresher that I quoted from Jung:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Jung said that a person in whom intuition was dominant, an "intuitive type", acted NOT on the basis of rational judgment but on sheer intensity of perception. An extraverted intuitive type, "the natural champion of all minorities with a future", orients to new and promising but unproven possibilities, often leaving to chase after a new possibility before old ventures have borne fruit, oblivious to his or her own welfare in the constant pursuit of change. An introverted intuitive type orients by images from the unconscious, ever exploring the psychic world of the archetypes, seeking to perceive the meaning of events, but often having no interest in playing a role in those events and not seeing any connection between the contents of the psychic world and him- or herself. Jung thought that extraverted intuitive types were likely entrepreneurs, speculators, cultural revolutionaries, often undone by a desire to escape every situation before it becomes settled and constraining—even repeatedly leaving lovers for the sake of new romantic possibilities. [8]

    In Carl Jung's theory of the ego, described in 1921 in Psychological Types, intuition was an "irrational function", opposed most directly by sensation, and opposed less strongly by the "rational functions" of thinking and feeling. Jung defined intuition as "perception via the unconscious": using sense-perception only as a starting point, to bring forth ideas, images, possibilities, ways out of a blocked situation, by a process that is mostly unconscious.
    [The foundation of my faith is the Bible, which I find to be very logical.]

  9. #139
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    How would I know the difference between experiencing God's word and Spirit and incorrectly interpreting a feeling (not in the MBTI sense) as experiencing God's word and Spirit? If the metric for deciding the legitimacy of the religious experience is my own gut, being correct and incorrect would seem to me to be exactly the same. So if I "understand", I can either be correct or delusional.

    This line of reasoning is why I don't view personal experience of God as evidence for God.
    There are plenty of people in asylums who are absolutely certain that they are Napoleon, or that their hair is made of snakes. Their certainty doesn't make it objectively so, though their subjective experience is indisputable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I have no reason to doubt God for the reasons I've already stated repeatedly. 'Absolute' is a personal choice. 'Flexible' is a personal choice. And the two can coexist.
    Ah, the acceptance of contradictions. Christianity does seem to require that. Jesus was god and man. God so loved the world that he sent his only son to redeem it; but was so disgusted he killed nearly everything in the great flood. Let the little children come, until it is time to sacrifice them on the mountainside. Cling to the wife of your youth, unless she is barren; then you can sleep with her handmaid. In God there is no longer slave or free, Jew or Gentile, male or female; but only females must cover their heads and keep silent.

    Yes, I am prooftexting, negatively. Highlighting the kinder, gentler bible quotes to justify one's faith or promote Christianity is just as much prooftexting, though. It is faith with blinders on, seeing only what we like in the bible. Yes, the bible itself is not religion, but an entire religion is predicated upon it. If you follow Christ, it is your primary, usually your only, "primary source material". There are plenty of Christians out there who know enough not to take the bible literally, to understand its cultural and historical context, and to see how it can inspire us in the modern age. There are also Christians who do not limit themselves to the bible in attempting to know Christ. Unfortunately, there are far too few.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think there is a very important distinction between logic being internally and externally coherent. in the system of a religion, many religious beliefs are logical. others may look at it from the outside and say it is illogical because they are looking at external coherency. but if you skip that step - a leap of faith, so to speak - then logic can abound within religion. and i think that is largely how we have logical thinkers who embrace religion - especially if they are raised in a certain religion (primed to endure that leap of faith) or encouraged toward it via some major life experience.
    As someone mentioned earlier, it comes down to assumptions. External viewers may find a faith illogical because they are questioning the logic of holding certain assumptions, and not just the conclusions drawn from those assumptions. Even from the inside, I could see the illogic and inconsistency of my childhood faith, which quickly led me to start questioning the basic assumptions. At that point, it all began to unravel like a great ball of string.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Can you prove there is a god?

    I think that saying god does not exist is as illogical as saying he exists is. It also depends on how you define it.

    One of my biggest issues is the lack of impeccable, precise vocabulary in this thread.

    When you can break god, the christian god, down to it's most basic parts, and say it is rational, I will believe those who think it is entirely rational.
    As soon as you look beyond the Christian god, you find notions of deity that are more rational, and more healthy. Christianity and unbelief are not the only options.

    True atheism is just as much a matter of belief as religious faith. As someone wrote earlier, perhaps on another thread, agnosticism is the only logically defensible perspective on god. Nonetheless, it can be logical sometimes to accept what cannot be rigorously proven through evidence and logic. I would have been hard-put to prove my mother loved me, but I have always believed it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    God so loved the world ...but was so disgusted he killed nearly everything in the great flood. Let the little children come, until it is time to sacrifice them on the mountainside. Cling to the wife of your youth, unless she is barren; then you can sleep with her handmaid. In God there is no longer slave or free, Jew or Gentile, male or female; but only females must cover their heads and keep silent.

    Yes, I am prooftexting, negatively. Highlighting the kinder, gentler bible quotes to justify one's faith or promote Christianity is just as much prooftexting, though. It is faith with blinders on, seeing only what we like in the bible. Yes, the bible itself is not religion, but an entire religion is predicated upon it. If you follow Christ, it is your primary, usually your only, "primary source material". There are plenty of Christians out there who know enough not to take the bible literally, to understand its cultural and historical context, and to see how it can inspire us in the modern age. There are also Christians who do not limit themselves to the bible in attempting to know Christ. Unfortunately, there are far too few.
    OMGoodness funny!! Are you Jewish? I do not live by the old testament, which is what you are promoting (above). You've taken bits and pieces out of context and proven you don't understand the Bible at all. None of what you just wrote applies to me as a Christian. None of it.

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