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  1. #121
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    By either adopting them into the fold of what is predominantly a theist worldview or rejecting them altogether. A personal God doesn't exclude the possibility of macroevolution, but a ~6,000 year old Universe does. Commonly, evolutionary theory and even cosmology is subservient to theology for those who accept it.

    I guess there are also those theists who could be confused and conflicted.
    Sure. dinosaur bones are planted by god to test our faith, etc, etc. I was asking Xyl(sp?)(jk), because I wanted to see what (s)he'd say so i could continue questioning him/her until we got to lcd.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Sure. dinosaur bones are planted by god to test our faith, etc, etc. I was asking Xyl(sp?)(jk), because I wanted to see what (s)he'd say so i could continue questioning him/her until we got to lcd.

    um... before we do this...













    asl?

  3. #123
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    79/m/ur backdore
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  4. #124
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I'm not sure about the 90%. Even absent a religious upbringing, the idea of god is just too pervasive, in society, in literature, art and public discourse. I suspect the majority of people raised to be critical thinkers will still develop spiritual faith, but it will be much more individual, rational/consistent, and possibly outside formal religious organizations. I know a few people who are open-minded, logical critical thinkers and have spiritual faith. They seem far more secure in their faith (and respectful of others' beliefs) than the many who blindly follow some established religion. These last often seem to cling to faith almost out of fear and desperation rather than wonder, as if shifting to examine it too closely will cause them to lose their grip and fall.
    Yeah the number 90% in this case is a number taken out of the clouds, but when I wrote that I was thinking of my upbringing. Childs around my place were raised involving virtually none religion. When you are protestant you come in touch for the first time with religion at age 14 for your confirmation. As a catholic its age 6 and 12 for communion and confirmation. Besides that you go to church on christmas, they make beautiful events on xmas eve.

    But thats about it what you have to do with religion. My parents never mentioned a thing from religion in my upbringing. people are just completly oblivious to it. When you go to a higher school, you will discuss religion in contrast to philosophy around age 17 - 20. Thats a good thing but even then most people are more intrested in philosophy.

    So its really only felt 10% later that become religious at all. Most people stay oblivious to it for a lifetime. I am not saying this is the right way, its how things are here. You maybe will meet a lot of people who are agnostic and wont rule out that there could be something like a God. But real church followers who go to church every evening and preach the word every day, well thats really really rare (and those people are considered extremists in my society. So Joyce Meyer wouldnt stand a chance here).
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  5. #125
    A window to the soul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyk View Post
    NO YOU DIDN'T! My question was "How can you be both absolutely certain of something AND accept that new information could change your mind?". You have stated that you do that but have not said how, which is really all I want. I'll leave you alone after you answer that simple question.
    Certainty admits of degrees. Absolute certainty does not, as it is a lack of any doubt and it comes through God’s word and Spirit. I see how it would take a flexible person to achieve that. So being open to convictions, opinions, criticisms, are examples of what I call flexible; where I will listen and I can bend and not break. My opinion, is that without absolute certainty, one would live in fear, uncertainty, and skepticism (in general); thus making them more rigid (than flexible).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I guess if your thoughts on God are more flexible then there wouldn't be much of a conflict. @Nerd Girl
    I didn't notice a conflict.

    If you feel conflicted, you are welcome to flex my way and meet me in the middle. Remember, I didn't go in your direction looking for reasons why you don't believe in God. And I'm not looking to swim with you all down stream. You all approached me as if you had proof God doesn't exist. I am willing to listen to what y'all have to say and I'm happy to answer your questions about my faith, but my beliefs are ultimately a personal choice and journey. I am happy swimming upstream without you.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Certainty admits of degrees. Absolute certainty does not, as it is a lack of any doubt and it comes through God’s word and Spirit. I see how it would take a flexible person to achieve that. So being open to convictions, opinions, criticisms, are examples of what I call flexible; where I will listen and I can bend and not break. My thought is without absolute certainty, one would live in fear, uncertainty, and skepticism (in general); thus making them more rigid (than flexible).
    I think it's possible to be skeptical and yet open minded, but doing so requires purity in both. If one is skeptical, then they should reason well, and if necessary, harbor their old assumptions. Skepticism for skepticism's sake isn't reasonable skepticism. As a rule, one should be skeptical only if something doesn't make sense, not if they are fearful because an idea isn't in their best interest. Similarly, it would be great if people took their beliefs to their logical conclusions, even if their fears or biases urged them not to. If ones self interest usually guides their will to believe one thing or another, then the desire to understand what is actual should replace ones self interest.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post


    I didn't notice a conflict.
    Well, if Jung's God is oneself, and if oneself is inherently evil, don't you think that grates at the traditional Christian thought that God is an objective entity, separate from oneself, that is not evil?

    Of course, perhaps you and Jung experienced the same intuition, but you had different conclusions about what caused it. I still don't like that you took something out of context that was already out of context to bolster an argument with an authority who didn't exactly support your argument. If you need someone else to confirm your intuition with theirs without even consulting them, then perhaps yours isn't as absolute as you say it is.

  8. #128
    Senior Member Xyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Certainty admits of degrees. Absolute certainty does not, as it is a lack of any doubt and it comes through God’s word and Spirit. I see how it would take a flexible person to achieve that. So being open to convictions, opinions, criticisms, are examples of what I call flexible; where I will listen and I can bend and not break. My opinion, is that without absolute certainty, one would live in fear, uncertainty, and skepticism (in general); thus making them more rigid (than flexible).
    I just don't see where you're coming from here. What you have said is exactly the opposite of what makes rational sense. An absolute certainty of anything, by definition, means that every opposing idea is categorically false. Absolute certainty does not bend. Bending would be admission of some incorrectness. I'm not absolutely certain that there is no god, just like I'm not absolutely certain that I'm not constantly surrounded by invisible dragons; however, there's no good reason that either of those MUST be true, so by default, they aren't. I freely admit that if some new, incredibly persuasive information were to be presented, I would accept the presence of whichever seemingly ridiculous thing.

    Without absolute certainty, I don't live in fear, however I do live knowing that death could be around any corner, or, more likely, in the air I'm breathing. Dwelling on that fact will not help it to become less true, so I pretty much ignore it. Uncertainty is a given. I live in constant uncertainty and that's what makes things exciting. I also live with skepticism in the general sense. That does not make me rigid. Skepticism means I force every idea through a rigorous logical gauntlet. Most non-empirical ideas don't make it through because they are usually illogical. Basically, what Ginkgo said. Frankly, I don't know where you find the causal relationship between skepticism and inflexibility. When presented with various religious ideas (christian and otherwise), I can take them individually and decide how likely whatever deities they worship are to exist (usually the answer is "negligibly likely"). One with absolute certainty of his or her religious beliefs will give a categorical "No, those don't exist" to all except his or her own. I only disbelieve one more deity than you do.
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  9. #129
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    @Xyk: I think what she means is given the data she has, she is sure (I'll refrain from saying 100% because I think that's the source of some confusion) her conclusion has the most value (predicated on her basic assumptions/desires). So if her data set changed, her conclusion may be different. That seems reasonable, although I personally disagree.

    I probably feel similarly about my worldview. I would just refrain from using the terms "know" and "100%".

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Perhaps she's going on the assumption that new information won't come to light, so she may be tentatively "absolutely" certain of whatever you guys are talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    My understanding is similar to Leger's. I believe she is simply assenting to the fact that she is a limited being with limited knowledge. She simply cannot foresee any new info that would change her position.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Xyk I think what she means is given the data she has, she is sure (I'll refrain from saying 100% because I think that's the source of some confusion) her conclusion has the most value (predicated on her basic assumptions/desires). So if her data set changed, her conclusion may be different. That seems reasonable, although I personally disagree.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I probably feel similarly about my worldview. I would just refrain from using the terms "know" and "100%".
    If you ever experience God’s word and Spirit, you will understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyk View Post
    No, this is a thread about religion. In religion, things like the existence of god are absolute. I always hope religious faith is hyperbolic, but it never has been in my experience. Plus, she said it enough times in several different ways.
    Time to think outside of the box. This is not a complicated concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyk View Post
    I just don't see where you're coming from here. What you have said is exactly the opposite of what makes rational sense.
    It makes perfect sense. I can be absolutely certain I'm in love with @LEGERdeMAIN and then as new information becomes available, I want my dog and stuff back; it's over. Do you understand the 'human' condition?

    I God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Well, if Jung's God is oneself, and if oneself is inherently evil, don't you think that grates at the traditional Christian thought that God is an objective entity, separate from oneself, that is not evil?

    Of course, perhaps you and Jung experienced the same intuition, but you had different conclusions about what caused it. I still don't like that you took something out of context that was already out of context to bolster an argument with an authority who didn't exactly support your argument. If you need someone else to confirm your intuition with theirs without even consulting them, then perhaps yours isn't as absolute as you say it is.
    Hmm, honestly I was not aware Jung's God was oneself. I have heard him call intuition God, but I didn't take it literally. I interpreted his quote, where he said he was gripped by God, as something not of himself. What are your thoughts on that quote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyk View Post
    Without absolute certainty, I don't live in fear, however I do live knowing that death could be around any corner, or, more likely, in the air I'm breathing. Dwelling on that fact will not help it to become less true, so I pretty much ignore it.
    That's you. Open up to other possibilities because uncertainty affects people in differenct ways. You may be able to live with uncertainty in your life and remain positive and flexible. Others may not.

    If you want a real world example, then look at finance. In finance, risk is described as uncertainty, and the potential outcome of uncertainty is fear. Reduce the uncertainty, and people become less afraid and more flexible.

    With regard to logical thinkers and religion, uncertainty could be a consequence of being inflexible to obtainable facts, and inflexible in trusting their intuition. Reduce the uncertainty, and people become more flexible. At some point, it makes sense for faith to increase to a point where people would become absolutely certain. I can testify to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyk View Post
    That does not make me rigid.
    What would you call your inability to understand my point of view? We don't have to agree, but at least try to accept that there are other rational possibilities than what you can imagine.

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