Logical thinkers and religion

[Mole]

Faith and Reason

There are logical thinkers adhering to various ideologies. Religions that have a history of philosophical writings and that attempt to create a complete sense of reality would have more appeal to a logical thinker. It is difficult to create a large-scale system of thought without some logical basis for organizing its ideas.

Some religions are specifically anti-logical and focus on present emotional responses as the source of insight and truth. They may rely on the more analytical works of other religions to create some of their underlying assumptions, but in the actual practice of the religion there is a fairly strong rejection of logical or analytical thought.

The religion that I was extensively steeped in for years was a newer one, but one that made an attempt at explaining every detail. They had extensive writings and commentaries that explained every single verse in the Bible referring back to the original Greek and Hebrew, etc. This did not produce a consistent logic, but does demonstrate that value is placed on being able to make a reasoned case for a conclusion.

The intermingling of reason and impulse can create a complex and unstable system. As a quick observation you can guesstimate how much a religion relies on logic in its method of dealing with conflict. If someone dissents in their beliefs, do they get out the writings and make a reasoned case, or do they socially and emotionally punish the person who is dissenting. The manipulation tactics that a person uses from inside a religion tells you the method of control place upon them to remain in the group. If the religion relies strongly on insider/outsider definitions that make outsiders dangerous, bad, dead inside, untrustworthy, then that system relies on coercion and not reason. If the person inside the religion is a great and wonderful person until they start talking about God, and then an arrogance and meanness overtakes them, that also tells you that their system is influenced by control tactics and not reason. The concept of God becomes a metaphor for that sense of social control and domination. If the topic of God lifts the person up to have a deeper sense of empathy, a greater compassion and comprehension of humanity, than that is also very telling because in that case God is a metaphor for, or even the original source of, insight.

The doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church is offically based on Faith and Reason.

This would seem to be exemplory where Religion meets the Enlightenment on an equal footing.

But alas, as we look closer we find that Faith is a priori, that is, Faith is a gift from God. And then interestingly, reason has the role of making sure catholics don't believe anything unreasonable.

So in short, Faith and Reason are not on an equal footing, and Faith is privileged.

And so the struggle between Religion and the Enlightenment continues today, but at least peacefully.

 

[Coriolis]

These are thought-provoking comments.

There are logical thinkers adhering to various ideologies. Religions that have a history of philosophical writings and that attempt to create a complete sense of reality would have more appeal to a logical thinker. It is difficult to create a large-scale system of thought without some logical basis for organizing its ideas.

Would it not be more logical to base a religion as much as possible in actual, objective reality rather than in some web of philosophy that attempts to create some reality that might turn out to be quite imaginary?

Some religions are specifically anti-logical and focus on present emotional responses as the source of insight and truth. They may rely on the more analytical works of other religions to create some of their underlying assumptions, but in the actual practice of the religion there is a fairly strong rejection of logical or analytical thought.

Can you provide some examples?

From my own experience, I was raised Catholic. The Catholic Church has an extensive history of religious writing, much of it very poetic, or scholarly, or both. Still, we were taught simply to believe. None of the formidable logic supporting the Church's teachings was ever presented to us. I learned about it mostly in (a very secular) college.

 

[highlander]

OMGoodness funny!! Are you Jewish? I do not live by the old testament, which is what you are promoting (above). You've taken bits and pieces out of context and proven you don't understand the Bible at all. None of what you just wrote applies to me as a Christian. None of it.

Since when have Christians dismissed the old Testament? Catholics for example have readings from the Old Testament at masses. Sure, the New Testament is more important but I'm not aware that none of it applies. I recall a series at my church about this which was quite fascinating. They called it the old testament challenge. We read portions of it and learned about it week after week for months. I go to one of the biggest, most influential and well known progressive Christian churches in the United States. There are people who study this stuff and in order to understand it, there is a great deal of context that's important as you stated. Some of it seems crazy without that context.

I believe everything in the old testament happened and I think it's an interesting read. However, Christians are not concerned with the old testament: the Jewish Law or the law of Moses (ten commandments) because Jesus fulfilled the law when he was crucified. The old testament taught us that no man can keep the law; it's impossible and those people were under condemnation. The old testament points us to Jesus, and the new testament where there is salvation; no condemnation for those in Christ. The new testament is the gospel of Jesus and the foundation of faith.

To support what I'm saying, here are the scriptures in the new testament where it's very clear that Christians are not under the old testament Jewish Law or the law of Moses (ten commandments):

• "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14.
• "Christians are ”dead to the law." Romans 7:4.
• "If ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law" Galatians 5:18.
• "Christians are "delivered from the law." Romans 7:6.
• "For Christians, the Law is "that which is done away." II Corinthians 3:11.
• "For Christians, the Law is "that which is abolished." II Corinthians 3:13.
• "For Christians, Jesus, on the Cross, was "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us." Colossians 2:14.
• "For Christians, the Law is taken "out of the way" and nailed "to his cross." Colossians 2:14.
• "When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether." Hebrews 8:13
• "And after that he said, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. Thus he put an end to the first in order to establish the second." Hebrews 10:9
• "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." [the law]. Galatians 3:24-25.

You're right. [MENTION=10530]guesswho[/MENTION] brought up the subject. He was curious about Noah and Moses. I was answering his questions.

I have never heard anyone say that Christians weren't supposed to follow the 10 commandments and those quotes do not convince me. The 10 commandments are almost common sense. It's not to say that you'll be judged by your compliance with them but someone who would claim to be a Christian but break them repeatedly might be considered something of a hypocrite.

That's only one small part of the old testament of course.

 

[A window to the soul]

Since when have Christians dismissed the old Testament? Catholics for example have readings from the Old Testament at masses. Sure, the New Testament is more important but I'm not aware that none of it applies. I recall a series at my church about this which was quite fascinating. They called it the old testament challenge. We read portions of it and learned about it week after week for months. I go to one of the biggest, most influential and well known progressive Christian churches in the United States. There are people who study this stuff and in order to understand it, there is a great deal of context that's important as you stated. Some of it seems crazy without that context.

I have never heard anyone say that Christians weren't supposed to follow the 10 commandments and those quotes do not convince me. The 10 commandments are almost common sense. It's not to say that you'll be judged by your compliance with them but someone who would claim to be a Christian but break them repeatedly might be considered something of a hypocrite.

That's only one small part of the old testament of course.

No sir! We do NOT follow the 10-commandments. We follow the Holy Spirit. God's law is in our hearts - the holy spirit. That's the New Testament. That's the new covenant.

 

[Antimony]

Thou shalt not kill? Be gone, senseless rules!

 

[A window to the soul]

I hope this helps...

Old Testament = Old Covenant = The Law = 10 Commandments = Condemnation = Judgement
New Testament = New Covenant = No Law = Holy Spirit = Grace = No Condemnation = No Judgement

We are not bound to the letter of the Law (10 commandments), not that the Law has any flaws, or is not Good and Perfect, but we are NOT perfect, and our Salvation comes by FAITH in Christ, and NOT our own adherence to the letter of the Law, because according to the Law, "everyone" is already condemned.

We are saved by FAITH, and our faith produces fruit, our works represent our faith, but none can be saved without Jesus Christ, and none can ever earn or deserve Salvation because we have ALL fallen short of the Glory of God, and we have ALL broken God's Law, for when you break ONE part of the Law, you break the WHOLE Law.

Once we broke it, the penalty for breaking the Holy Law of God is death, and we who have FAITH in Christ have already died to the Law in Christ when He died for our sins on the cross. He took our penalty of execution upon Himself. Now we are bought by God as servants to righteousness/holiness, not held to account for our sins because we have been PARDONED by God through our FAITH in His Son, our Savior, the Redeemer of the World.

So we live in a state of GRACE to the best of our ability (through the power of the Holy Spirit), remembering the sacrifice God made for us, while relying on him the entire time, to complete the work He started in us, according to His will and for His Glory, knowing that it is ONLY BY HIS SACRIFICE for us that WE ARE SAVED.

 

[Nicodemus]

WE ARE SAVED.

From what?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Would it not be more logical to base a religion as much as possible in actual, objective reality rather than in some web of philosophy that attempts to create some reality that might turn out to be quite imaginary?

I was speaking in relative terms. From what I understand the scientific process (especially when operating free of personal ego and social and economic constraints) is humanity's best attempt towards objective and reasoned thinking. Philosophy can veer away from reality more readily, but large scale systems do tend to require some elements of reasoned interrelationships in order to hold together.

Can you provide some examples?

From my own experience, I was raised Catholic. The Catholic Church has an extensive history of religious writing, much of it very poetic, or scholarly, or both. Still, we were taught simply to believe. None of the formidable logic supporting the Church's teachings was ever presented to us. I learned about it mostly in (a very secular) college.

On an individual level it can happen in any religion, but in Christian religions it would be those denominations with a focus on being moved by the Holy Spirit as the measure of enlightenment. It would be the ones that focus on individuals being prophetic, speaking in tongues, being moved by the Holy Spirit on impulse to dance, speak, feel, or act in any way. Everything is felt as though the individual is channeling the Holy Spirit or God. If you compose a piece, write a poem, have an idea, it is God who did it and not you. It makes for a complicated sense of humility, because saying it wasn't you seems humble, but to think your song or poem is so great that it is god's work is pretty proud.

They also use a lot of large-scale group gatherings with highly rhythmic speaking and songs that create really strong group unification in which the individual is dissolved into the whole. It feels intensely exciting and inspiring to them, but none of this uses rational thinking or attempts to create coherency in terms of ideas. Even if someone wants to defend this as having a net-positive result, it is still clear that it is anti-rational, and anti-logical. Those intense forms of group think in mega-church settings increases the overall force of its impulses which do not use reason as an external reference point to moderate extremism, irrationality, and circular forms of justification that can conceivably produce any result including destructive ones.

 

[skylights]

Interesting perception, more deception. Poor thing. What do you want now? a bandaid? a compass? sympathy?

I will pray 4 you. <3

You're a liar.

If you are not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand spiritual things because your spirit is dead.

i realize that both you and i and all others are human beings, flawed and fallible, but i am not sure i understand how non-believers - or believers of other spiritualities - are supposed to reasonably consider and discuss your beliefs when there has been little breakdown of reasoning or text but there are comments like these that do not resonate with love or peace or truth in any religion.

i do understand what you mean by speaking of dead spirits but i think it is a rather harsh comment nonetheless, even to someone who has been steeped in born-again christian language. i would think it would perhaps be wise to save concepts like that for those who have begun to show more of an interest in the faith, because the implications of those words to someone who does not completely understand their context are very grave.

Why does everyone cling to me? I'm not the only believer in this thread.

because you are surprisingly defensive and provocative, and i believe many of us who have been reading this thread have been waiting for more analysis of text and/or history and/or theology, which we can look at through a logical lens, since that is the subject of the thread. fia and corilois' recent posts seem to be more along those lines.

also because your christianity is not one that we have all heard of before. i don't believe i have ever discussed with someone who shares the same set of viewpoints as you have supported in this thread. this may be because of my physical location and/or personal interests, but it is interesting nonetheless.

just thought i would add this post because you seem surprised by people's reactions, but it seems relatively clear to me why there have been the responses that there have been.

 

[A window to the soul]

WE ARE SAVED.

From what?

People normally think of salvation as just being saved from eternal darkness, but it's much more than that. God wants to save you everyday. God wants to save your cirucumstances. God wants to save your emotions from bitterness, unforgiveness, and hatred. God wants to save your mind from stress, worries, cares and the burden of anxiety. God wants to save your finances. God wants to save your body from sickness and disease. Because God loves you.

 

[redacted]

People normally think of salvation as just being saved from eternal darkness, but it's much more than that. God wants to save you everyday. God wants to save your cirucumstances. God wants to save your emotions from bitterness, unforgiveness, and hatred. God wants to save your mind from stress, worries, cares and the burden of anxiety. God wants to save your finances. God wants to save your body from sickness and disease. Because God loves you.

Do you believe that fewer bad things than average happen to people that have the version of faith you adhere to?

 

[Mole]

People normally think of salvation as just being saved from eternal darkness, but it's much more than that. God wants to save you everyday. God wants to save your cirucumstances. God wants to save your emotions from bitterness, unforgiveness, and hatred. God wants to save your mind from stress, worries, cares and the burden of anxiety. God wants to save your finances. God wants to save your body from sickness and disease. Because God loves you.

I hope God doesn't want to save us from cognitive dissonance because cognitive dissonance is the path to learning.

However cognitive dissonance is emotionally painful so perhaps to save us from emotional pain, God also saves us from learning.

 

[Nicodemus]

People normally think of salvation as just being saved from eternal darkness, but it's much more than that. God wants to save you everyday. God wants to save your cirucumstances. God wants to save your emotions from bitterness, unforgiveness, and hatred. God wants to save your mind from stress, worries, cares and the burden of anxiety. God wants to save your finances. God wants to save your body from sickness and disease. Because God loves you.

Who is responsible for the existence of eternal darkness?

 

[A window to the soul]

Who is responsible for the existence of eternal darkness?

In Matthew 25:41 Jesus talks about hell being created for Satan/fallen angels (because Satan rebelled). God did not create Hell as a horrible place or for man, but once God removed his presence from hell, it became horrible because God's glory, grace, goodness, and love were removed from it.

With that said, if man rejects God, then man will go to the only alternate place, which is completely void of God: hell.

James 2:10 tells us, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." We have all broken God's Commandments, and since "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord," (Romans 6:23) we are in need of a Savior. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:23)

"it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

C.S. Lewis, once stated, "I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside. All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will [a grumbling] mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood..."

 

[Nicodemus]

In Matthew 25:41 Jesus talks about hell being created for Satan/fallen angels (because Satan rebelled). God did not create Hell as a horrible place or for man, but once God removed his presence from hell, it became horrible because God's glory, grace, goodness, and love were removed from it.

With that said, if man rejects God, then man will go to the only alternate place, which is completely void of God: hell.

James 2:10 tells us, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." We have all broken God's Commandments, and since "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord," (Romans 6:23) we are in need of a Savior. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:23)

"it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

C.S. Lewis, once stated, "I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside. All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will [a grumbling] mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood..."

If hell is horrible because god removed his presence from it, if breaking the law was bad because god wanted it so, if breaking the law is now okay because god had his son killed, then god made hell horrible, then god condemned those who broke the law and killed his son only to change his own stance on the self-invented notion of sin. What you are saved from is god's own bad ideas. He forgoes the whip and you think he deserves praise for that. Madness!

 

[entropie]

religion doesnt like lateral thinkers, so what am I supposed to do ? Either I dont like religion as well or I apple-polish them and pray for forgiveness.

The options religions leaves you to choose from are black and white. My World tho is grey.

 

[Lark]

religion doesnt like lateral thinkers, so what am I supposed to do ? Either I dont like religion as well or I apple-polish them and pray for forgiveness.

The options religions leaves you to choose from are black and white. My World tho is grey.

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. That sounds like lateral thinking, its what you make of it. If you're predisposed to dislike religion or what you think underpins it then you'll not like it.

 

[entropie]

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. That sounds like lateral thinking, its what you make of it. If you're predisposed to dislike religion or what you think underpins it then you'll not like it.

Well I dont believe in predisposition. I believe in the power of belief and that you by believing in it can become anything you want. This opens up options for you to develop in life which religion would never grant you, because it condems everyone who doesnt believe.

The most primordial fact I find frightening about religion is that it says that life on Earth is a challenge, which when you succeed will grant you passage to heaven. What if I already consider life as such a miracle composed of a trillion random variables which led to my existance and am thankful that I was granted it. And that I dont want to go to any heaven but that heaven to me is the challenge that is life ?

Why do I need to be rewarded for something that I like and dont want to be rewarded for.

The same logical fallacy applies to doomsday scientists. Why do doomsday scientists research doomsday ? When doomsday happens there aint anyone around nomore to tell that they were right in the first place ?

 

[Lark]

Well I dont believe in predisposition. I believe in the power of belief and that you by believing in it can become anything you want. This opens up options for you to develop in life which religion would never grant you, because it condems everyone who doesnt believe.

The most primordial fact I find frightening about religion is that it says that life on Earth is a challenge, which when you succeed will grant you passage to heaven. What if I already consider life as such a miracle composed of a trillion random variables which led to my existance and am thankful that I was granted it. And that I dont want to go to any heaven but that heaven to me is the challenge that is life ?

Why do I need to be rewarded for something that I like and dont want to be rewarded for.

The same logical fallacy applies to doomsday scientists. Why do doomsday scientists research doomsday ? When doomsday happens there aint anyone around nomore to tell that they were right in the first place ?

Religion doesnt mean that to me, I've always believed that if you dont find paradise in this life you wont in any other.

 

[entropie]

Religion doesnt mean that to me, I've always believed that if you dont find paradise in this life you wont in any other.

Your fatalistic streak for hopeless romantic reminds me of Braveheart .

Lately I found out that Mel Gibson made the movie Passion of Christ. I was kinda shocked to find out that all my american idols seem to be religious fanatics. I generally find this trend in America frightening. I mean I do tolerate belief, having grown up in a muslim quarter I quite early learned to cope with that. And everyone who has the "live and let live attitude" really is no problem to me. I even like endless debates about religion but still this fanatism which evolves from the arabian/western conflict is kinda startling. I dont really know if religion is worth that and I hope in the future that americans do find another cultural identity than only feeling united when Joyce Meyer speaks with her Botox lips or another war is waged.