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  1. #31
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    That's what most praise is, to you. Therefore you are more likely to view it through the lens of how you feel when you receive it. I think you are overlooking the function it performs for Fe users as recipients and are attributing disengenuous motives that are not necessarily present.

    Because we all have to interact with each other, and because it appears that the needs of both camps are very different, I can't see what harm there is in any interested parties becoming aware of what will most effectively grease their respective wheels of interaction.

    Statements like yours puzzle me because they seem unprovoked. You could make the same statement in a matter of fact, positive way and deliver the necessary information without causing offense. If there is no other motive than just self-expression of what you feel, it's hard not to just shrug my shoulder's and attribute it to immaturity or carelessness because it's the internet, but perhaps I'm missing something.

    If a Fe user gets that blunt with people, it is usually because the messages they are responding with (which they believe are clear) seem to be going unnoticed. Therefore, your statement seems oddly hostile, considering the circumstances. No one in this thread has complimented you or even interacted with you and no one here is the other Fe users you have met in real life.

    I'm only bringing this up because I'm curious how Fi users would perceive it, and if it isn't seen as harsh, what would be in their world?

  2. #32
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That's what most praise is, to you. Therefore you are more likely to view it through the lens of how you feel when you receive it. I think you are overlooking the function it performs for Fe users as recipients and are attributing disengenuous motives that are not necessarily present.\
    Because we all have to interact with each other, and because it appears that the needs of both camps are very different, I can't see what harm there is in any interested parties becoming aware of what will most effectively grease their respective wheels of interaction.
    Statements like yours puzzle me because they seem unprovoked. You could make the same statement in a matter of fact, positive way and deliver the necessary information without causing offense. If there is no other motive than just self-expression of what you feel, it's hard not to just shrug my shoulder's and attribute it to immaturity or carelessness because it's the internet, but perhaps I'm missing something.
    If a Fe user gets that blunt with people, it is usually because the messages they are responding with (which they believe are clear) seem to be going unnoticed. Therefore, your statement seems oddly hostile, considering the circumstances. No one in this thread has complimented you or even interacted with you and no one here is the other Fe users you have met in real life.
    I'm only bringing this up because I'm curious how Fi users would perceive it, and if it isn't seen as harsh, what would be in their world?
    - well for one, I certainly can't speak for all Fi users (as stated in my original post as "Elfboy's Rules for Praise/Criticism". if anything, I'm probably closer to an IxTx in this regard)
    - not hostile 95% of the time, it's just something I have a strong opinion about, especially when people expect me to return it (this is the point where I can turn slightly hostile and often say something like "I never asked for your opinion, so don't expect me to return one." or in an extreme scenario "I don't like you, why would I return your compliment?"). for the most part, interaction with people is a chore for me and I don't like to engage in emotional niceties with people unless necessary.
    - on a deeper level, I have disgust for anything that is not genuine or sincere, which I often perceive praise not to be. this isn't something I usually tell people though, it's just a personal thing I have. normally I'll just smile politely and move on
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  3. #33
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    I dunno. The example itself in the OP seems insanely one-sided, as if the Fe user is the 'bad guy' and the Fi user is the one who is just genuinely trying to understand poor Doris. Maybe that's just how I read it.

    Sometimes it's useful to delve deep and understand another person's motives. Other times, well, there's a job to be done and we can't be bothered with that crap and so we must truncate our line of thinking and make a judgment so we don't exhaust ourselves. For example, we might conclude that Doris might have some unresolved issues, but they are her issues, and it is her responsibility to deal with them so that she can properly communicate and work with us. On the other hand, we also have to deal with Doris, and understanding her motives might help us empathize with her and deal with her in healthier ways.

    I can be empathetic to an employee's plights, and I can understand what they are going through, but if I were to take on too much responsibility for their issues, I would drown.

    Take on the best mindset for the situation and move forward.

  4. #34
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    I often see people with Fi making the blunt statements about people.

    Real life examples:
    Fi- you are grumpy today.
    Fe- you seem like you are having a bad day.
    Fi- she is such a slut.
    Fe- she has had sex with a lot of guys, but that doesn't make her a bad person
    Fi- she seems to be having a bad day. Be nice to her.
    Fe- I don't give a fuck, she deserves it.

    Frankly, I don't think it matters too much. I think personality dispositions and other things need to be taken into consideration.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Take on the best mindset for the situation and move forward.
    I seem to have a fairly good ability to adapt to different situations in this way. The ability to mold your own personality according to the environment seems to be associated with IxxP types, from what I've seen on various typology forums. I think a lot of it is being able to develop your Fi enough so it can get out of its' own way, to put it one way. I hope that makes sense.

  6. #36
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - well for one, I certainly can't speak for all Fi users (as stated in my original post as "Elfboy's Rules for Praise/Criticism". if anything, I'm probably closer to an IxTx in this regard)
    - not hostile 95% of the time, it's just something I have a strong opinion about, especially when people expect me to return it (this is the point where I can turn slightly hostile and often say something like "I never asked for your opinion, so don't expect me to return one." or in an extreme scenario "I don't like you, why would I return your compliment?"). for the most part, interaction with people is a chore for me and I don't like to engage in emotional niceties with people unless necessary.
    - on a deeper level, I have disgust for anything that is not genuine or sincere, which I often perceive praise not to be. this isn't something I usually tell people though, it's just a personal thing I have. normally I'll just smile politely and move on
    I understand what you're saying. There are two things I don't get though:

    1) Your response seemed emotionally charged and grossly generalized, which tends to provoke a negative reaction in those it's directed against because it seems unfair. Why do this? Just because the consequences aren't significant enough that it really matters, or would that even factor in?

    2) A lot of Fi threads have made the charge that most praise is insincere. Either Fe and Fi have differing definitions of praise, or Fi users truly are not understanding how necessary praise is for Fe users and that they don't all just dole it out indiscriminately for mercenary and manipulative reasons. I tend to be fairly selective in my praise, and mean it sincerely when it is given. If your response is the kind of response I got, I would perceive the person as either very immature or else just a jerk for no reason. Giving praise requires a certain kind of vulnerability and it feels like having acid splashed in your face when something is offered sincerely and rejected in that manner. Again, maybe it is an issue of delivery, but I think I'd get the message quickly to cease and desist from the person's response if they didn't appreciate it, even if it was subtle. Why use a canon, when a BB gun would accomplish the same thing?

  7. #37
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I understand what you're saying. There are two things I don't get though:

    1) Your response seemed emotionally charged and grossly generalized, which tends to provoke a negative reaction in those it's directed against because it seems unfair. Why do this? Just because the consequences aren't significant enough that it really matters, or would that even factor in?
    not really, I'm in a slightly irritated mood for unrelated reasons, but I'm not really angry or emotionally charged, controversial would be a better way of putting it.

    2) A lot of Fi threads have made the charge that most praise is insincere. Either Fe and Fi have differing definitions of praise, or Fi users truly are not understanding how necessary praise is for Fe users and that they don't all just dole it out indiscriminately for mercenary and manipulative reasons. I tend to be fairly selective in my praise, and mean it sincerely when it is given. If your response is the kind of response I got, I would perceive the person as either very immature or else just a jerk for no reason. Giving praise requires a certain kind of vulnerability and it feels like having acid splashed in your face when something is offered sincerely and rejected in that manner. Again, maybe it is an issue of delivery, but I think I'd get the message quickly to cease and desist from the person's response if they didn't appreciate it, even if it was subtle. Why use a canon, when a BB gun would accomplish the same thing?
    I know this about FJs, it's just that I don't like it, which is why I generally don't say anything unless they get really clingy, invasive or, at worst, guilt trippy, this is when the "canon" comes into play (I'm so perverted lol) but generally most FJs get the message pretty quickly.
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  8. #38
    Señora Member Elfa's Avatar
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    I'm an Fi dom here, and I like praise. I like giving and receiving praise, and sometimes they're a good conversation starter. I consider the possibility of me being too naive, but I don't remember receiving a praise I didn't feel like sincere... But if I ever got the impression that the praise was untrue, I probably just didn't care - praise is still nice and I'm just enjoying whatever I'm doing/wearing/etc at the moment.
    I don't know if it's Fi associated (it seems it isn't), but I really like praise. On the other side, no one has ever gained anything from me using praise or flattery... (maybe that's the Fi? who knows...)

  9. #39
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Oh yeah! I've long suspected that Fi users aren't as likely to talk about what they feel in words, which makes me extremely uneasy because I have a phobia about emotional surprises and how can I know what to expect if I have no way to gauge what is going on, other than my own observations and often imperfect conjecture?
    What applies to me may not apply to other Fi users...
    I often have very strong desires to share or talk about what I am feeling, but I can find myself confliced about it whether its a good idea to bring it up or not (does it have the potential to cause discomfort to the other person? Will bringing this up ruin the mood? Is it somethign complex that is going to require a long conversation where uninterupted tiem to talk is essential? does it have the potential to cause even more misunderstandings? - those are the types of thoughts that go through my mind before talking about what I'm thinking/feeling). The result is that I often find myself waiting for "the right moment" to talk about what I'm feeling/thinking. There are of course plenty of times where it feels natual to express my feelings and thoughts in a timely manner, but since those don't cause stress its easy to only focus on the potentially awkward stuff.

    Do you think that all Fi users generally don't verbalize their emotions except in extreme moments? If so, how do those of you who married Fe users deal with that divide in ways of dealing with things? Because Fe users often are picking about who they vent to, but still find having a reliable person to talk to indispensible, I believe they often assume that others have the same needs. It truly doesn't seem possible that they don't. Therefore, when a Fi user just turtles for a bit, or doesn't verbalize anything, it may be misinterpreted as a lack of trust in their significant other, rather than different needs. I believe that if the Fi user understands that to be the case, it would really be helpful if they could verbalize that fact (even if it seems painfully obvious) AND offer the Fe user something to do instead that would be helpful to them and explain what purpose it would serve.
    I was engaged to an INFJ and communications issues like that were a problem that contributed to the end of our enagement (I'm trying to learn from my mistakes now, but it may be too little too late - only time will tell in that regard). If I had been willing to talk about my concerns and what I was feeling and how important certain things were to each of us, it might have made a huge difference - the frustrating thing is that the things I think may have made a difference were all things I had put a lot of thought into but never got around to brining up talking about because I could never find a "right moment" for it or I chose not to bring up because I thought it would cause unwanted conflict in a time where there was a plapable feeling of tension in the relationship. Based on her comments about my lack of communications (lack of openness on my part) I would say your evaluation of the situation is very accurate - she expected me to share things at the same level she did and when I did not (or at least not nearly as often) that was a source of disapointment as well as ocasioanly frustration and it did make her feel like I did not trust her (whcih was never my intent and until she said that, it never crossed my mind - I saw it as not wanting to burden her with potentialy depressing things - with both of us being empathic with each other, when one of is sad, so is the other and I thought keeping my negativity and frustrations inside was sparing her from that).

    I understand now that what I find supportive (getting stuff for them, verbalizing appreciation for them, spending time together, asking a lot of questions etc), really wouldn't be perceived that way to a Fi user. However, I still don't have much idea of what to do instead and that makes me get kind of panicky. I feel closer to someone who has helped me process something. If we don't have that avenue, what is the equivalent for a Fi user that makes them feel closer to a person at the end of something difficult, or do they even have that need or wish?
    Those are all things I appreciate, but when it comes to asking questions, thats the part where I like having someone willing to ask those questions to bring me out of my shell and create opportunites to talk about things I have been keeping isnide, but when the role is reversed it never seems to cross my mind that someoen else would want the same thing (I think its because other people usually seem so much more open to begin with that I think they are already sharing what they want to share so asking questions would be crossing their comfort threshhold). I would say that those special conversations where both persons can express their thoughts and feelings and learning something new and personal about each other is what creates a feeling of closeness for me (the "I never knew that about you" moments) and in that sense all I can say is that I'm often guilty of not providing the same types of things I'd want others to do for me to help create opportunites for those moments to occur. Maybe Fi and Fe are not so different, or maybe I have a stronger affinity to Fe than I realized but never had many opportunites to actualy develop the attribute?

    I'm only bringing this up because I'm curious how Fi users would perceive it, and if it isn't seen as harsh, what would be in their world?
    It was blunt/harsh to me too, but I saw it as more of a matter of fact statement about oneself - it could certainly have been softened and worded diplomatically, but it was very successul at getting the point across.
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  10. #40
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I understand what you're saying. There are two things I don't get though:

    1) Your response seemed emotionally charged and grossly generalized, which tends to provoke a negative reaction in those it's directed against because it seems unfair. Why do this? Just because the consequences aren't significant enough that it really matters, or would that even factor in?
    These statements are more than fair. Your patience and eagerness to understand are truly magnificent but I don't think he deserve your efforts in this instance.

    @Elfboy if your goal was to totally make Fi-users look like jerks, you have succeeded. I thoroughly appreciate your efforts to add fuel to fire with the negative stereotypes about us, thanks ever so much.

    Your snarky tone was totally uncalled for and your comments totally unrelated to the useful discussion at hand. Your blanket statements about FJs speak only for your ignorance and immaturity; not to mention your general reasoning is very poor and incredibly simplistic (FJs=fake=bad).

    Please try to be more constructive and show some consideration in your posts.
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