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  1. #21
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    While I agree with the analogy between Fe and Te, there's a couple things I would add to it. Fe-users are very capable of trying hard to understand the other person's perspective. I spend a lot of my time and energy doing that, and I know there are other Fe-users who do the same. But I think the distinction is that Fe is about results--so an Fe-user would normally spend whatever time, energy, and learning it takes in order to have a better relationship with the other person, including trying hard to understand their point of view. But, based on my understanding of Fi, an Fi-user would normally spend the time and energy into trying to understand the other side--just for the sake of understanding. Not that they wouldn't use this info to try to improve their relationships, but the original motive would be slightly different.

    So to put what I'm thinking more succinctly, both Fe-users and Fi-users can work hard to understand the other point of view and want to improve their relationships, but Fe understands in order to get better results while Fi understands for its own sake, going beyond the point of what could help them get results.
    Haha. Maybe. At least for a T type...

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  2. #22
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree with this! Usually I am consumed with figuring out why people act as they do, figuring out their point of view, perspectives, experiences etc, so that I have context for their behaviour. Part of it is that I like being able to predict how people will act and react and what to expect from them (I seem to need this to build a sense of safety and security to work from). Part is that if we are going to work together in any situation, whether personal or professional, I need to make the effort to understand them as well as I can.
    This is one difference. I'm not sure Fi is used to predict how others will act so much.

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  3. #23
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree with this! Usually I am consumed with figuring out why people act as they do, figuring out their point of view, perspectives, experiences etc, so that I have context for their behaviour. Part of it is that I like being able to predict how people will act and react and what to expect from them (I seem to need this to build a sense of safety and security to work from). Part is that if we are going to work together in any situation, whether personal or professional, I need to make the effort to understand them as well as I can.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'm not sure Fi is used to predict how others will act so much.
    It seems to me that both Fe and Fi love "figuring out why people act as they do, figuring out their point of view, perspectives, experiences etc." But perhaps the reason this knowledge is sought is different for Fe and Fi.

    For example, usually I'm really, really good at predicting people's behavior. But this isn't nearly as important to me as relishing in the knowledge of what makes someone tick... from which I can easily extrapolate what their behavior will be. In other words, for me, predicting behavior is incidental to understanding someone else's perspective. I feel safe and secure after I know what makes a person tick.

    I hope this makes sense.
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  4. #24
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    It seems to me that both Fe and Fi love "figuring out why people act as they do, figuring out their point of view, perspectives, experiences etc." But perhaps the reason this knowledge is sought is different for Fe and Fi.

    For example, usually I'm really, really good at predicting people's behavior. But this isn't nearly as important to me as relishing in the knowledge of what makes someone tick... from which I can easily extrapolate what their behavior will be. In other words, for me, predicting behavior is incidental to understanding someone else's perspective. I feel safe and secure after I know what makes a person tick.

    I hope this makes sense.
    That sounds right to me.

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  5. #25
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    You do a huge service by asking questions about what we've said (which in Fi land would be rude because you'd offer that information if you wanted to talk about it and appreciate people not going there if you didn't.). Sometimes to process things, Fe users really need to know that it is safe and that you are interested. Stuff like, "So what happened then?" "Why do you think he was doing that?"
    For some reason the second question feels extremely strange to me. It is incredibly unnatural and almost taboo. I dunno why...Can you give examples of other questions you might ask?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Waiting for the non-verbal invitation to offer other perspectives seems to work much better. You can usually tell when it's time because the person will start thinking about how their ranting may be perceived or they may add qualifiers that show they are beginning to modify the strength of feeling in their initial outburst.
    .
    ^^This was very helpful, thank you. Once i learned I shouldn't overtly disagree, I wasnt sure exactly what to do, so just listened, asked questions, and agreed with everything they said...perhaps not so helpful, but I did try and be supportive.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    It may seem ridiculous, but I really need that sort of thing to sort out what I think and feel. Otherwise it feels overwhelmingly difficult to deal with, and yet I can't will resent someone coming in uninvited to take over solving the problem for me or telling me that I am incorrect in my perception.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    re Your perspective being felt by other Fe users as unsupportive - I think I get that way too. I've decided that it usually happens when I feel that the other person has not taken time to completely understand the situation and are trying to rush to the problem-solving too fast, or when they try to play the devil's advocate, not understanding that what may look like frustration or anger can be hurt or unsureness.
    If I may add a slight twist to the thread...how long does it take Ti to find the best answer and how does this compare to Te for a problem? How does the problem solving convert to actions?

    This may actually not be the correct question...an illustration of a situation whee I ran into the "thinking too fast" problem is below. It is presented not to be self-centric, but because it seems to be a representation of this type of communication issue.:

    My ISTP Ex: Maybe you should think about if it is a good idea for ethan (16yo enfp son) to keep dating his girlfriend, given his grades have dropped some.

    Me: *Thinking for ten seconds* Hmm, well I think it is still okay, we should watch his grades by the week and try and observe if he is turning in homework, but it should be okay.

    My ISTP Ex: No, really, maybe you should think about it.

    me: *thinking* well I think it is okay, we just keep an eye on him and be ready to step in if needed

    My ISTP Ex: *getting frustrated* No, REALLY, you should think about it for awhile.

    Me: (intenally-WHY is he getting mad...if he doesnt want him to date the girl he should just say so...why cant he be honest rather than so passive agressive about the issue) "You know, if it bothers you that Ethan is dating this girl, we can talk about it-I am totally cool with him not dating her, just let me know what you want"


    My ISTP ex:
    THAT ISNT WHAT I SAID. Why cant you just think about it for awhile?

    Me: *forced calm* "I DID think about it and that was my decision. Why are you being passive agressive about this? Look, let's just talk about this later and we can figure out what we want to do.

    ************************************************** **
    At this point he left and his INTJ dad and ISTP mom were still present, having watched the convo.

    Me: "why is he being so passive agressive about this? Why cant he just say what he wants? I am totally cool doing exactly what he wants but he just wont be upfront about it?? He just needs to tell me what he wants me to do and quite being immature about what he wants and just tell me."

    INTJ dad: *laughs* "oh honey, I have had this same argument hundreds of times over the twenty years I have been married to your mom (the ISTP). They just dont think as fast as we do. What I learned was that you even if you decide on something and know exactly what you will do, you tell them you will think about it for awhile and then come back later and do what you planned in the first place"

    ISTP mom: He isnt being passive agressive, he just doesnt think you are thinking about it hard enough or long enough.

    INTJ dad: "no, some people just think faster and know what they want right away. You and "ISTP ex" just think slowly."

    ISTP mom: well you just cant rush into making up ideas.


    INTJ dad: to me "Your mom (the istp) will take days and days to plan out every detail of what she wants to do and it has to be perfect.

    The ISTP was getting uncomfortable so I changed the subject.

    **************************************************
    Questions-how long does "thinking" take? What are signs another has thought enough? Is there really this big of a gap in "thinking" turn around time between a Ti and Te problem solving approach? What other things need to be considered that are not?


    I keep seeing INFJs in forum threads mention how much the quick problem solving can feel rushed and constrictive, so I would like to understand it more fully, as that isnt the intent.

    ************************************************** *****
    Now to twist this point back on itself, with respect to he slowness of Fi, an illustration of a convo with my ENTP best friend:

    Her: What do you need me to feel for you today, in three days, three years?

    me: *stammering* I dont understand what you are asking for...what does that mean exactly?

    Her:"ISTJ husband has that exact same look when I ask him this. You guys just look stupid and your jaw gapes. What are you feeling RIGHT now? What will you feel tommorrow??"

    Me: I dont know. I had have to think about it for awhile. It defies words. How could I have any idea what I will feel tommorrow...I mean I could make something up, but that doesnt mean it will be real. I would be lying to you. I can tell you that I will always be there to do anything for you that you ever need, but I cant tell you what I will feel at any particular moment.

    Her: ISTJ husband says the same exact thing. How can you not have any idea what you will feel in the future? Why cant you just talk about what you are feeling with words? Isnt that part of emotional maturity?

    Me: I duuno, I think that as part of Fe. If I talk about my in the moment feelings, you are going to get a lot of gibberish and weirdness with a ton of monentary fluctuations. It's like a wind chime blowing in the breeze...

    It seems Fi has the same issue in some sense with describing feelings. I admit being REALLY annoyed when I see this inability to speak about emotion in a polished manner as being emotionally immature. Different yes, but immature, no.

    Questions: Does it sometimes happen that does an inability to speak about emotions in an Fi user, morphs into a clinical description of "immaturity" or " emotional coldness" when in reality, it is just a need for more time to process and reflect?

    Sorry @Esoteric Wench , I may have deviated your thread just a touch. I see these as very interelated, just another aspect of the same underlying issue-Ne FTW.

  6. #26
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Fi needs to consult internally, rather than turning to external sources. It also needs to factor in a complex collection of things and still has difficulty defining feeling. I believe Ti is somewhat the same. It takes some processing time. Fi may feel Fe is superficial and painting emotions with far too broad of strokes without looking at subtleties. Similarly, Ti users see Te as oversimplifying and not taking time to take all the information needed to understand the problem into account.

    Therefore, asking how long it takes to think is a difficult question to answer. How long will it take you (as a Fi user) to figure out what you are feeling about something and how long will you feel the same way? Who knows? If it is anything like how Fe sees and relates to Fi, I can see it seeming incomprehensible to not know what you think about something right away. It's sort of liking being expected to look at the red and spend awhile contemplating the colour possibilities before definitively saying it's red, when you feel quite confident there's not really anything more to consider! I'm not sure what the answer to that kind of dillemma is. I guess I'll have to think about it for awhile and tell you what I come up with later ...

    Re your previous responses to my quotes - When I first came here, I really couldn't understand why Fi users felt that the kinds of questions I would see as supportive and helpful would be seen as intrusive. After being in a few of these threads and seeing some examples of what Fi users would say to each other instead, I noticed that Fe users felt that those comments would be like igniting dynamite, yet other Fi users found them helpful and supportive. I concluded that it is such a foreign language to me, that it would be dangerous to attempt to use some of the examples given, lest I really mess up, seeing as I'd already feel I was being rude and therefore would have no measure for whether I was actually crossing some line or not! I can see now how you could feel the same, even though I still can't quite understand what about those questions would prompt the feelings of discomfort. Is it that it seems too prying?

    I believe part of the difference is that just as Te sounds very sure, yet is seeking input from others, Fe does the same and so those questions are an absolute necessary part of our own thinking process. It's like helping a camera lens trained on our situation to come into focus so that we can decide how we wish to proceed. Taking over and saying what to do is what feels intrusive to me, but I do need help getting my own lens to come into clear focus and that is accomplished through those sorts of questions. I don't know if this would work or not, because functions are hard to separate and work in conjuction with each other. However, could you think of what kinds of questions you would find helpful in Te mode and then extrapolate that into an emotional context?

    Most kinds of questions would be seeking more information. Just as giving a synopsis of a novel forces the student to clarify their facts and focus in on the most important events, retelling what happened and clarifying anything that they don't immediately understand helps Fe users to clarify what actually happened and focus in on the most important events. Then they can pick a course of action without all of the less useful data clogging up their attention. Perhaps even it would help to think of the kinds of questions you might ask someone if they were telling you about a movie that you had an interest in but may not get to see.

    Oh! Regarding when to give advice - wait until it is directly asked for. It is true that you can tell a person is getting more interested in solving the problem when they start attending to how their words could be perceived by you or when they start trying to look at the problem from more perspectives. However, that may take a little bit of time (Ti processing perhaps?). It also may mean that they are non-verbally trying to check if what they are sharing with you is way over the top or if you are interested in continuing to help them by listening or are growing weary of it. It's like them taking a bit of a peek in the mirror you are holding up to see how presentable/unpresentable they are emotionally. However, it doesn't mean they are done "getting ready" and are asking "How do I look?" before going out in an emotional sense. They know they have some fixing up to do first and probably don't want you to think they are presenting you with their finished product yet. Don't know if that image is useful to you or not...

  7. #27
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Oh yeah! I've long suspected that Fi users aren't as likely to talk about what they feel in words, which makes me extremely uneasy because I have a phobia about emotional surprises and how can I know what to expect if I have no way to gauge what is going on, other than my own observations and often imperfect conjecture?

    Do you think that all Fi users generally don't verbalize their emotions except in extreme moments? If so, how do those of you who married Fe users deal with that divide in ways of dealing with things? Because Fe users often are picking about who they vent to, but still find having a reliable person to talk to indispensible, I believe they often assume that others have the same needs. It truly doesn't seem possible that they don't. Therefore, when a Fi user just turtles for a bit, or doesn't verbalize anything, it may be misinterpreted as a lack of trust in their significant other, rather than different needs. I believe that if the Fi user understands that to be the case, it would really be helpful if they could verbalize that fact (even if it seems painfully obvious) AND offer the Fe user something to do instead that would be helpful to them and explain what purpose it would serve.

    I understand now that what I find supportive (getting stuff for them, verbalizing appreciation for them, spending time together, asking a lot of questions etc), really wouldn't be perceived that way to a Fi user. However, I still don't have much idea of what to do instead and that makes me get kind of panicky. I feel closer to someone who has helped me process something. If we don't have that avenue, what is the equivalent for a Fi user that makes them feel closer to a person at the end of something difficult, or do they even have that need or wish?

  8. #28
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Elfboy's rules for praise/criticism

    Fi
    - if you're not going to say something genuine, don't say anything at all
    - don't try to manipulate me or you will suffer

    Te
    - get to the point or shut up
    - be objective, both with criticism and praise
    - out with it, don't beat around the bush
    - make sure it's relevant
    - if you are harsh, but honest, I won't take it personally; if you are dishonest, I will take it personally

    conclusion: 95% of the time, assuming I don't ask for feedback, I don't care about your opinion, so shut up and don't waste my time
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  9. #29
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Whoa, Elfboy, you make interacting with Fi users sound like a dream. Way to give Fe incentive to bother!

  10. #30
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Whoa, Elfboy, you make interacting with Fi users sound like a dream. Way to give Fe incentive to bother!
    I'm giving them disincentive to bother, not incentive (all types, but especially FJs. I really don't like them most of the time). I abhor flattery, and that's what most praise is
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

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