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Thread: Ne/Si

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Default Ne/Si

    It should be noted that Ne and Si are the two sides of the same coin and im talking about the coin here, not about one side or another.

    And i should give a proper definitions for both S and N.

    S is simply defined as perception of what is, a fact.

    N is defined as perception via unconscious and seeing where something came from and wher it might be going to/possibility over time. This possibility over time is acquired from comparison between external world and Si(what is inside). These possibilities come in form of instincts, unless the internal counterpart(to the external perception) is seen consciously.

    I should also tell you what i mean by object. Object can be other than just physical object, it can be anything you can process, a group of certain people, certain person, certain idea, concept(concrete or abstract) etc.

    NeSi is looking for an internal counterpart for external perceptions. This comparison happens more or less unconsciously.
    When Ne is preferred over Si, the internal counterpart(memory/internalized fact) is less conscious and the matching comparison results usually on perceiving an instinct or gut feeling about where the perceived object might be going to(its possibility over time). When Si is preferred over Ne, the gut feeling of possibility over time is not perceived as easily, the treshold for seeing the connection between external object and internal counterpart is higher, thus comes to consciousness less often, but when it does, the internal object is seen more clearly. One major difference between the types(np vs sj) is that for sj types clarity of internal counterpart is more of a reguirment for comparison to be taken seriously, while for np types the internal counterpart doesent need to be seen so clearly, since for np the internal counterpart isnt as differentiated(distinguished from others) in the first place, but is more mixed up with others.

    This leads to stronger bias towards perceptions(compared to Se users), because external perceptions are modified by 'what is' inside. How this perceptual bias happens reguires bit of explanaining. The perception itself is lacking compared to Se, because S in introverted attitude is removing what is unconsciously seen as irrelevant on the external perception. Ne adds possibility and connection between objects perceived to this partial perception, building an big picture perception with connection between things and possibility over time.

    Sj types naturally use their Je function more consciously in order relate to their external world, so even tho they arent adding/seeing possibility of external objects so clearly, it doesent mean that they would relate to external world less consciously, they just do so with judgment more than np types.

    I think thats all for now.

    Any comments?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    Default

    Really really like this description. It's putting in text a lot of my thoughts about Ne and Si.
    I don't see any invisible treasure chests.

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    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    @INTP - Interesting thread and description.

    I must admit to being a bit confused about the "dual functions" - like SiNe for the ISTJ or NeSi for the ENFP. It seems a bit strange to use a poorly developed function in combination with a well developed one. How do you think this works? Do we do it all the time? Do we use it only in certain cases?

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    i like to think of Si points in my Ne matrix. wouldn't have a matrix if there wasn't anything to anchor it around...

    i just happen to attend more to the overall landscape of the matrix than the points that establish it. whereas ESFJ mom pays more attention to the points. she is more in tune with reality (better at directions... better at data... better with details... ) but i am better at seeing big overall patterns.

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    @INTP - Interesting thread and description.

    I must admit to being a bit confused about the "dual functions" - like SiNe for the ISTJ or NeSi for the ENFP. It seems a bit strange to use a poorly developed function in combination with a well developed one. How do you think this works? Do we do it all the time? Do we use it only in certain cases?
    Well, i dont think we use those poorly developed functions all the time(on every thought), but we do use them more than we are aware of.
    The way brains function is that it splatters action potential(libido in jungian terms) all over and if it gets on areas that are well developed(on processing the thought we get) the signal gets strenghtened and once its strong enough, it travels easily to areas where consciousness is formed. But when this info travels to areas that arent well developed it gets shut off before it travels to areas that form consciousness, but nevertheless it shapes the neural connections on those not so well developed areas in a way that enables the thought to be processed easier when the next signal comes.
    Consciousness "ticks"(is able to receive action potential) about 250 times a second, because we arent aware of things between of these "ticks", it gets merged into one continuous flow of thought.
    Now because this "tick rate" is so fast, it can push info into consciousness from not so well developed areas also and combine it with info coming from well developed areas. Its like the not well developed areas(unless you have learned to process some particular things with those areas) need more "ticks" to do one conscious participation on your thoughts.
    But also because the brain shapes itself all the time, those not so well developed areas are able to sort of shape themselves into processing info in future "ticks", remember this future ticks can be just 250th second away or much longer, not sure how fast ununsed connections get cut out, but generally some unconscious thoughts(thoughts that are processed only to some degree, but never formed strong enough to become conscious) are said to even come from childhood to adult life.

    But the thing with N is that it doesent seem to be any particular areas that do them, but it seems to be more like an pattern of action on areas used for other functions. Ne being random activation of all areas, most likely projected on visual and auditory areas(therefore effecting the external perception. Ni being more focused activity gathering info from sides of the brain moving to center(not affecting the external perception, but gathering(reading markings from) already experienced external perceptions and perceiving them from within.

    Because of this N function is bit different from other functions(which are basically specific areas working together).

    But it seems that when using intuition Sj and Np types tend to gather the information in this random sense, using sort of cross-contextual thinking(comparing things being processed to other areas processing the same thing), while Nj and Sp use this more focused way of gather the information(centering the thought) from within(think a wave of action potential starting from edges of brain and centering in the middle).

    Now the difference between Np and Sj types usage of this Ne function is just that it doesent get activated as often in Sj types. I think Sj types are able to get the boost from single areas(processing some particular thought) easier thats needed for it to become conscious, so this comparison between areas(Ne) isnt needed as often and most importantly, because the single thoughts are more refined(as its processed further, getting more specific doing so), its harder to find the "equilevant" from other areas. Compared to Np types who go into refining a fact less often, making it less specific, thus being more easily compared to other areas processing the same thing. Enabling us to make bigger intuitive leaps, but on the down side its not as specific.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post


    i like to think of Si points in my Ne matrix. wouldn't have a matrix if there wasn't anything to anchor it around...

    i just happen to attend more to the overall landscape of the matrix than the points that establish it. whereas ESFJ mom pays more attention to the points. she is more in tune with reality (better at directions... better at data... better with details... ) but i am better at seeing big overall patterns.
    Yea well, imo this is whats it about.

    You could think it as this sort of map:


    Sj types go further refining a single path on this map and these more refined paths come into consciousness easily. Np types on the other hand do less refining(doesent look as deeply into one path) of these paths, but compare these reference points to other reference points alike more.

    Think that you need an intense enough tought for it to come to consciousness.
    Now when Sj types gain the intensity for a thought more from following a single path, Np types gain the intensity by comparison. Now when you compare an pathway to another that already exists, its easier to think how this path being compared to similar one might go.
    -> Np types get more frequent ideas of where something might be leading to and where it propably came from and more connections between things perceived. But these are just asumptions based on the contents of your unconsciousness. Sj types have more refined and clear single paths, but less Ne comparison.
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    — C.G. Jung

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    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Sj types go further refining a single path on this map and these more refined paths come into consciousness easily. Np types on the other hand do less refining(doesent look as deeply into one path) of these paths, but compare these reference points to other reference points alike more.
    Actually, SJ types focus more on individual points on the path.
    I don't see any invisible treasure chests.

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owfin View Post
    Actually, SJ types focus more on individual points on the path.
    Well i think it as one path being the refinement of an though. The well defined individual points are at the end of the path and they include the previous points. Also its not just one path that becomes a thought, its the ends of multiple paths that are merged into single thought. Remember at each actionpotential "tick" the actionpotential is spreading all over where its not repressed(not let through an neuron/individual point).
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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    Senior Member chris1207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    It should be noted that Ne and Si are the two sides of the same coin and im talking about the coin here, not about one side or another.

    And i should give a proper definitions for both S and N.

    S is simply defined as perception of what is, a fact.

    N is defined as perception via unconscious and seeing where something came from and wher it might be going to/possibility over time. This possibility over time is acquired from comparison between external world and Si(what is inside).
    I think time is something I would associate more with Ni/Si. It's the result of mapping and remapping similar perceptual stuff (either patterns or detail depending.) Ne/Se are all about perceiving in the present but have a totality and nuance to their perception that Ni/Si don't. I would say Ne is more correlation of known details from Si. Seeing the connections in between them and correlating resultantly similar patterns across a diverse variety of, apparently, disparate topics.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    These possibilities come in form of instincts, unless the internal counterpart(to the external perception) is seen consciously.
    I like the use of instincts here. I think of Se as being the essence of what one speaks of when they refer to instincts. It's good to see a correlation to the other Pe.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I should also tell you what i mean by object. Object can be other than just physical object, it can be anything you can process, a group of certain people, certain person, certain idea, concept(concrete or abstract) etc.
    Kind of. Object = externalized or at least, perceived externalities that one appeals to and coordinates with. That which is outside oneself vs internalized, interpolated data (Pi).

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    NeSi is looking for an internal counterpart for external perceptions. This comparison happens more or less unconsciously.
    When Ne is preferred over Si, the internal counterpart(memory/internalized fact) is less conscious and the matching comparison results usually on perceiving an instinct or gut feeling about where the perceived object might be going to(its possibility over time). When Si is preferred over Ne, the gut feeling of possibility over time is not perceived as easily, the treshold for seeing the connection between external object and internal counterpart is higher, thus comes to consciousness less often, but when it does, the internal object is seen more clearly. One major difference between the types(np vs sj) is that for sj types clarity of internal counterpart is more of a reguirment for comparison to be taken seriously, while for np types the internal counterpart doesent need to be seen so clearly, since for np the internal counterpart isnt as differentiated(distinguished from others) in the first place, but is more mixed up with others.
    I really like the last point. That strikes me as true. A more developed function is going to have an inherently stronger structure. Higher sensory discernment = greater nuance with regards to detail distinctions whereas higher conceptual dynamism = greater ability to see patterns that have similar images despite containing disparate elements with regards to detail.

    The over-time stuff, as I mentioned above, not so much. Plus, look at real-life examples. SJ's have a much better perception of time, hence they're tendency to create and appeal to schedules, though this incorporates Je decision-making, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    This leads to stronger bias towards perceptions(compared to Se users), because external perceptions are modified by 'what is' inside. How this perceptual bias happens reguires bit of explanaining. The perception itself is lacking compared to Se, because S in introverted attitude is removing what is unconsciously seen as irrelevant on the external perception. Ne adds possibility and connection between objects perceived to this partial perception, building an big picture perception with connection between things and possibility over time.
    Actually, reason that Se users seems less anchored to perception is the fact that expressing ones perspective requires utilizing details and impersonal rationale ('words'). Because the depth of perception with Si/Ne users lies with details, this goal is more easily accomplished. With Se/Ni users, we must incorporate a juxtaposition of conceptually distinct examples to illustrate Ni, which may be lost on the listener.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Sj types naturally use their Je function more consciously in order relate to their external world, so even tho they arent adding/seeing possibility of external objects so clearly, it doesent mean that they would relate to external world less consciously, they just do so with judgment more than np types.

    I think thats all for now.

    Any comments?
    Pretty good overall. A little convoluted but your subsequent posts were much clearer in expressing what you mean.
    "... you think deeply about stuff [that] nobody cares about and hardly anybody can understand you." ~ Peguy talking about Ni users. So true.

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    Senior Member chris1207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Well i think it as one path being the refinement of an though. The well defined individual points are at the end of the path and they include the previous points. Also its not just one path that becomes a thought, its the ends of multiple paths that are merged into single thought. Remember at each actionpotential "tick" the actionpotential is spreading all over where its not repressed(not let through an neuron/individual point).
    No. Owfin is right. To reference your diagram: Si focuses on refining the nodes, which themselves are constructed of details. Ni focuses on refining the pathways. Se focuses on the totality of immediate sensory input, all of the nodes which exist within range of the immediate senses, thus, e.g., not a firetruck behind a house, with regards to vision. Ne focuses on the totality of the connections and, using Si, the perceived similarity between certain clusters.

    So Ne may see a connection between the colors yellow, orange and red from the diagram and sunrises, sunsets, and clouds, on account of the similarity between the two sets of nodes, with regards to the shape that relates them. It's worth pointing out, though, that I am merely using strict interpretation of the example to draw these conclusions for sake of example. This example may have no literal relevance to any Ne/Si user.

    Ni can do that for Se as well. With a dearth of visual input, Ni can leverage other sense, using Se, such as hearing, to see behind objects. So, in the example one might hear the sound of the firetruck's horn or the spraying of high-pressured water and infer the existence of the firetruck behind the house. This is especially likely, if that house also happens to be on fire. The two elements, a burning house and a firetruck, being intimately and intuitively connected via Ni.
    "... you think deeply about stuff [that] nobody cares about and hardly anybody can understand you." ~ Peguy talking about Ni users. So true.

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