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Introducing S vs. N

Blackwater

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May 29, 2007
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454
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ERTP
An abstract-minded person, however, would look at the same picture and then conclude that: It is phallic and imposing; it can be viewed as a symbol of fertility; it might have been the wish of the builder to articulate his dominance over other architects or to assert mankind's triumph over nature. In other words, an abstract-minded person would pay heed to all of the non-immediate features of the situation...

http://www.celebritytypes.com/concrete-vs-abstract.htm
 

Silveresque

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When I look at that picture, not a single abstract thought comes to mind. It's just a tower. Yet I relate more to the N characteristics than S. In general, I don't make very many random associations, yet I'm not exactly living in the present and paying attention to my surroundings either; I daydream all the time. Would that make me S or N?
 

Such Irony

Honor Thy Inferior
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sp/so
Same as Revis Zero. With most pictures and art forms I see, I rarely think about the underlying symbolism behind it. I appreciate it for what it is. I notice the sensory beauty of it. The closest thing to abstract is that its awe inspiring. But its inspiring to my senses.

I'm probably an N type overall though.

I've bolded what particularly fits me in the S and N descriptions and italicized what sort of fits, depending on the circumstances.

S:

Concrete
Realistic

Prize enjoyment
Aware of current trends
Lives in the present
Often use straight talk
Aware of surroundings
Notices details
Often like crime novels (I'm more interested in those that focus more on big picture issues in society and not so much on minor details, which I think is more N)
Practical
Factual
Observation over imagination
Often content with status quo
Make things happen
Loyal to friends (why is this under S?)

If American; more likely to be conservative


N:

Future-focused
Sees possibilities
Prize inspiration

Aware of own inspiration
Introspective about the past
Often use difficult words
Flighty ideas
Imaginative
Often dislike crime novels (If they focus too much on mundane details)
Reflects but does not always do
Theoretical
Imagination over observation
Often restless with status quo
Contemplate things
See both sides

If American; more likely to be liberal
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
1,361
i can't look at anything without becoming aware of possible abstractions. they arise subtly and i don't have to pay attention. they are part of pattern regognition. they don't have to translate into thought-consciousness (words). but i am not so sure abstraction is type related (same for pattern recognition, btw). abstraction is subjectivity related, which is developmentally related. i would assume introverted people may give slightly more conscious time to it. go there for the sake of going there. since introversion=subjectivity. apart from that, type would simply determine the type of abstractions that you form or the direction into which those abstractions or associations go, in the process of their creation. (hence intuitive typologists might not necessarily acknowledge sensor abstractions.) do abstractions go toward psychic nature (Ni), toward organic nature (Si) toward comparative/realistic nature (Se) toward ...idk manipulative (movement/impact/fusion) nature (Ne)? and that's just for abstractions of perceptive nature. thought can be abstract too. concepts are abstractions. understanding a word like "fallacy" (as a type of thinking error) is fairly abstract, but not intuitive/perception related. every estj understands such concepts.

i must say, imagining Se abstractions is most difficult to me. best thing that comes to mind are signs (toilet, traffic). but Se is not exactly where i am at home, so maybe it's just my inability ...
 
Last edited:

rhinosaur

Just a statistic
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Apr 23, 2007
Messages
1,464
MBTI Type
INTP
I've bolded what particularly fits me in the S and N descriptions and italicized what sort of fits, depending on the circumstances.
Good idea.



S:
Concrete (what does this mean?)
Realistic
Prize enjoyment
Aware of current trends
Lives in the present
Often use straight talk
Aware of surroundings
Notices details
Often like crime novels
Practical
Factual

Observation over imagination
Often content with status quo
Make things happen
Loyal to friends
If American; more likely to be conservative

N:
Future-focused
Sees possibilities (who doesn't?)
Prize inspiration (what does this mean?)
Aware of own inspiration
Introspective about the past
Often use difficult words
Flighty ideas
Imaginative

Often dislike crime novels (If they focus too much on mundane details)
Reflects but does not always do
Theoretical
Imagination over observation
Often restless with status quo
Contemplate things
See both sides
If American; more likely to be liberal
 

Silveresque

Active member
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
1,169
S:

Concrete
Realistic
Prize enjoyment
Aware of current trends
Lives in the present
Often use straight talk
Aware of surroundings
Notices details
Often like crime novels
Practical
Factual
Observation over imagination
Often content with status quo
Make things happen
Loyal to friends

N:

Future-focused
Sees possibilities
Prize inspiration
Aware of own inspiration
Introspective about the past
Often use difficult words
Flighty ideas
Imaginative
Often dislike crime novels
Reflects but does not always do
Theoretical
Imagination over observation
Often restless with status quo
Contemplate things
See both sides
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
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Messages
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ESTJ
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1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I appreciate the section that talks about the drawbacks of being an N. That side needs to be talked about more -- to make sure Ns don't feel like they can do everything Sensors can and more.

Misleading terms such as "abstraction level" tend to suggest that abstract-minded people can do anything that concrete people can do, but this may be an artifact of the values embedded in the educational system. Education is geared towards the strong suits of abstract-minded people, such as coming up with clever interpretations and using difficult words. However, the real world has equal use of either orientation.

While having a high degree of abstraction often entails a certain cerebral agility when it comes to discussing abstract ideas, the downside seems to be an increased openness to unsubstantiated, sometimes even bizarre, ideas. In philosophy, for example, there is no end to the amount of societies that have been dreamed up by abstract-minded researchers and which work perfectly on paper, yet do not work in the real world. A classical example to this end is "How would you feed New York City?" While many an abstract-minded person would attempt to come up with a new and better system for supplying NYC with all the food and drink it needs, the only correct answer hitherto proven to be succesful is, "I wouldn't." New York City is fed by a multitude of concrete and realistic people, each keenly perceptive of his or her link in the chain. There is no grand abstract mastermind, nor is there any master plan. Everytime and everywhere such a master plan has been attempted for any free city, the result has been shortages of foodstuffs and a dramatic decrease in the number of different foods available.

Finally, another drawback of being abstract-minded may be clinging too much to one's intellectual intuition, that is, one's subjective, internal ideas about how things are and what they mean. Many controversies in science and philosphy have been (and are) really about abstract-minded people clinging to their subjective intuitions about how things are rather than weighing the evidence factually and realistically.

And if we're going to weigh ourselves in terms of this article's definition of S and N...
S / Concrete:
Concrete
Realistic
Prize enjoyment
Aware of current trends

Lives in the present
Often use straight talk
Aware of surroundings
Notices details
Often like crime novels
Practical
Factual

Observation over imagination
Often content with status quo
Make things happen
Loyal to friends


N / Abstract:
Future-focused
Sees possibilities

Prize inspiration
Aware of own inspiration
Introspective about the past
Often use difficult words

Flighty ideas
Imaginative
Often dislike crime novels
Reflects but does not always do
Theoretical
Imagination over observation
Often restless with status quo
Contemplate things
See both sides
I think this definition of Sensing vs. Intuition is actually SJ vs. Intuition. The words they used to describe Sensors didn't seem to associate much with SPs. For example, since when are ISFPs associated with being content with the status quo?
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
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sp/sx
Using a building as an example is a little murky because it's not really "art" by most definitions. For that tower I tend to think first about function - what its function is, how it is a tourism symbol, how it was engineered, why it was built. I don't know that I would call those things abstract or concrete - they're somewhere in between, I guess. I do not think about how it's made of steel and nuts and bolts or anything like that, lol.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
Joined
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Messages
1,361
the image does have art qualities. the tower and the style of the nature/park IS actually art(ificial) and intentionally or not displays the spirit of those who have made it so. the perspective is highlighting aspects of it. there is a thread about another image of the eiffel tower, and some other images somewhere. users describe how they "feel" about those images. verry interesting. i can't find the damn thread.
 

strychnine

All Natural! All Good!
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
895
It's highly absurd to me that anyone can look at a picture and interpret it literally. On the other hand I would definitely not interpret your picture that way (symbol of fertility*). Instead I might think about why people are so taken by the tower in the first place, what about human psychology and about the tower makes the tower so attractive to us. I mean people flock from everywhere to see that. Why? And why do I personally tend to be uninterested in supposedly beautiful visuals? People will ask me to smell flowers because they supposedly smell good. I am seldom interested in smelling them. Why is that? etc.

Those kinds of thoughts would happen immediately. I definitely would not stand there like "oooh lol the tower is shiny and the grass is green." I would be tying the tower in to some global/universal idea immediately.

*I see quite a few things as symptomatic of the general human obsession with fertility. That is not to say all humans are obsessed with it consciously, I just think a lot of people have a subconscious or semi-consious obsession with fertility.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
1,361
It is phallic and imposing; it can be viewed as a symbol of fertility; it might have been the wish of the builder to articulate his dominance over other architects or to assert mankind's triumph over nature.

this is obviously a subjective (introverted) direction of "abstraction" or association. and if it arises immediatly it's perception. and while the fertility thing is organic (close to Si) the rest might as well be Ni. it's also typical of Fi and Fe to be concerned with whether power/dominance might be involved into anything.

it describes pretty much how i (Pi dominant) look at images like that.
 

lunalum

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Joined
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Messages
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ZNTP
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sp/so
These are the problems that examples cause :laugh: Like, the example with the Eiffel Tower holds up on some level but it still kind of gives the impression that sensing is just seeing things and intuiting is the capacity for abstraction. Like as said in the passage, it's about the emphasis put on the immediate or non-immediate features, not the capacity for it.

Not to mention the "impressions" listed are more likely to spring up from someone who has a wide college background, whether or not that person has a preference for thinking of the world in that way. I think they have an introverted intuitive slant as well.... if I was told to "heed the non-immediate features" I'd think more of "someone from outer space saw this pointed at them and this is why they're going to attack us, isn't it?"

I just saw it and thought "Eiffel Tower" as well. I don't think that part is relevant to being S or N.

Tried something a little different here to see how close to S I really am here. Bolded my own traits, italicized the unsure, and strikethroughed what I'm not, and counted both the bolded and the italicized.

S / Concrete 12/16
Concrete
Realistic
Prize enjoyment
Aware of current trends
Lives in the present

Often use straight talk
Aware of surroundings
Notices details

Often like crime novels
Practical
Factual

Observation over imagination
Often content with status quo
Make things happen
Loyal to friends
If American; more likely to be conservative

N / Abstract 16/16
Future-focused
Sees possibilities
Prize inspiration

Aware of own inspiration
Introspective about the past

Often use difficult words
Flighty ideas
Imaginative

Often dislike crime novels (well to be fair I haven't given them a good enough shot yet)
Reflects but does not always do
Theoretical
Imagination over observation
Often restless with status quo
Contemplate things

See both sides
If American; more likely to be liberal


But I'd also definitely be designing that system to feed New York City rather that say that I wouldn't, and think all that realistic mumbo jumbo was just put there as a challenge :D

Now I see why that R is so useful....
 
G

garbage

Guest
That stuff is spot-on to me. When I observe something like the Eiffel tower, I do quickly end up generalizing or trying to understand its purpose. Why was it constructed? What is it supposed to mean?

I also end up facing stuff like this:

"Oh, hey, the clothes on this rack are kind of disorganized and look slightly out of style, or at least out of season. [more mental churning here that's hard to put into words] I bet these clothes are on clearance."

*looks at price on shirt*

"Hey, this one is kind of cheap.. maybe I'm right."

*finally notices big freakin' sign that says "CLEARANCE"*

:doh:


let's also play the game that everyone else is playing
S / Concrete

Concrete
Realistic
Prize enjoyment
Aware of current trends
Lives in the present
Often use straight talk
Aware of surroundings
Notices details
Often like crime novels
Practical
Factual
Observation over imagination
Often content with status quo
Make things happen
Loyal to friends

If American; more likely to be conservative

N / Abstract

Future-focused
Sees possibilities
Prize inspiration
Aware of own inspiration
Introspective about the past
Often use difficult words
Flighty ideas
Imaginative
Often dislike crime novels
Reflects but does not always do
Theoretical
Imagination over observation
Often restless with status quo
Contemplate things
See both sides

If American; more likely to be liberal
 

Blackwater

New member
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
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ERTP
thanks for the many responses. last time i chekced this thread it has 0! :-o

as someone said, the danger of examples is, that they may be wrong. too much MBTI litterature get around this by using weasel words and by being overly vague. i'd like to hit a little closer to the mark than that.

the looking at a picture and thinking of abstract definitions was taken from research into openness. but it may have gotten a little out of hand. still, though, that's basically the same way scientists define this.

isn't anyone here conservative? ;)
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
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the looking at a picture and thinking of abstract definitions was taken from research into openness. but it may have gotten a little out of hand. still, though, that's basically the same way scientists define this.
From what I understand, the correlation between intuition and openness is not solid enough to use them interchangeably. I score pretty high on openness on the big 5 (assuming that's the openness you refer to). It is probably more accurate for distinguishing SJ from non-SJ.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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Messages
1,361
i don't know your deffinition of openness, but one of typologies biggest flaw is it's unawareness of developemental psychology. closedness of western grown ups in my book correlates with retardedness. with personality disorders that prevent developement or just verry poor education or influence of fanatic subcultures. functions are lines of intelligence. any line of intelligence has it's own developement. there are other lines of intelligence, besides type functions. all of them start out in a simple minded thus "closed" fashion. openness is consideration of complexity / differenciation. one stage of developement is called conformism. albeit people don't comprehend developement (untill they have evolved towards vision logic) they have intuitive grasp on what conformism is, based on external clichees, as apposed to introspective awareness of internal functionality. (every stage is maintained, every new stage is made out of the functionality of all previous stages, therefore it is possible to grow differenciated understanding of all stages interally, this is called vision logic). most people associate SJ with conformism, even though in reality all lines and types go through and beyond conformism. why this association? because the conformistic stage is the most powerfull stage in culture, it's where most grown ups act from most of the time, even though modern culture is superficially inspired by values of higher stages like rationality and pluralism. coincidentally EXXJ types are most expressive of cultural values. it's through them that conformism get's it's external appearance. they like the uniforms and guide the rituals, they are on the frontpage of the newspaper. but they don't make the internal functionality of conformism happen any more than any other type. i don't trust in test results, but if i were to, i would have to come to the conclusion that a shitload of intuitives is limitied to conformism, based on their texan political attitudes.

this is all relevant here, because, as i said, the ability to be abstract minded is mostly a result of developement. it's based on having grown the mental space (through internal differenciation) that allows for duplication of object representation: you have the original and the abstracted object, side by side and don't get confused about which is which. intuition may correlate with conscious focus on the virtual, idealistic. many abstractions are extremly practical though.

in regard to "understanding" abstractions, i have noticed, that some people are good at using them without noticing that they are using abstractions, while others are good at noticing where the abstractions are comming from and prefering to stay in touch with their source, often pointing out "misguided" abstractions. same goes for symbolic thought of all forms. i think the former types are leftbrained J dominant and the latter are right brained P dominant.

i could go on and on .... apparently i am still interested in typology :p
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
It seems to make Ns out as though they mosty rely on assumptions. How painful would it be if your skills at guessing were poor, but you were hardwired with a preference for N? Goodbye, cruel world, and damn you, intuitive preference!!!

*raises fists in the air*
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
1,361
yeah its true but lets not to be too hard on us, cause human life is a subjective condition and people who attempt to rely "only" on hard facts aren't really doing "better" (less subjective) in the long run, because they are so subjective in their judgement about what's supposedly a hard fact and what not. the point is to learn to consciously deal with one's subjectivity. everyone has to know his place, the scope of his vision. people being overconfident (the majority imho), applying power beyond their scope, are possibly the biggest pain in humanity's butt.
 

INTP

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sx
From what I understand, the correlation between intuition and openness is not solid enough to use them interchangeably. I score pretty high on openness on the big 5 (assuming that's the openness you refer to). It is probably more accurate for distinguishing SJ from non-SJ.

True, openness has more to it than intuition, its basically a group of sub scales and some of these subscales has nothing to do with N, but majority of them are directly comparable to aspects of N. This is why people might be S, but still score high on openness or might be N, but not so strong on openness.

Correlation between the two is something around 75% if you look at it statistically, if i remember right.
 
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