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  1. #11
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    It is phallic and imposing; it can be viewed as a symbol of fertility; it might have been the wish of the builder to articulate his dominance over other architects or to assert mankind's triumph over nature.
    this is obviously a subjective (introverted) direction of "abstraction" or association. and if it arises immediatly it's perception. and while the fertility thing is organic (close to Si) the rest might as well be Ni. it's also typical of Fi and Fe to be concerned with whether power/dominance might be involved into anything.

    it describes pretty much how i (Pi dominant) look at images like that.

  2. #12
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    These are the problems that examples cause Like, the example with the Eiffel Tower holds up on some level but it still kind of gives the impression that sensing is just seeing things and intuiting is the capacity for abstraction. Like as said in the passage, it's about the emphasis put on the immediate or non-immediate features, not the capacity for it.

    Not to mention the "impressions" listed are more likely to spring up from someone who has a wide college background, whether or not that person has a preference for thinking of the world in that way. I think they have an introverted intuitive slant as well.... if I was told to "heed the non-immediate features" I'd think more of "someone from outer space saw this pointed at them and this is why they're going to attack us, isn't it?"

    I just saw it and thought "Eiffel Tower" as well. I don't think that part is relevant to being S or N.

    Tried something a little different here to see how close to S I really am here. Bolded my own traits, italicized the unsure, and strikethroughed what I'm not, and counted both the bolded and the italicized.

    S / Concrete 12/16
    Concrete
    Realistic
    Prize enjoyment
    Aware of current trends
    Lives in the present

    Often use straight talk
    Aware of surroundings
    Notices details

    Often like crime novels
    Practical
    Factual

    Observation over imagination
    Often content with status quo
    Make things happen
    Loyal to friends
    If American; more likely to be conservative

    N / Abstract 16/16
    Future-focused
    Sees possibilities
    Prize inspiration

    Aware of own inspiration
    Introspective about the past

    Often use difficult words
    Flighty ideas
    Imaginative

    Often dislike crime novels (well to be fair I haven't given them a good enough shot yet)
    Reflects but does not always do
    Theoretical
    Imagination over observation
    Often restless with status quo
    Contemplate things

    See both sides
    If American; more likely to be liberal


    But I'd also definitely be designing that system to feed New York City rather that say that I wouldn't, and think all that realistic mumbo jumbo was just put there as a challenge

    Now I see why that R is so useful....

  3. #13
    garbage
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    That stuff is spot-on to me. When I observe something like the Eiffel tower, I do quickly end up generalizing or trying to understand its purpose. Why was it constructed? What is it supposed to mean?

    I also end up facing stuff like this:

    "Oh, hey, the clothes on this rack are kind of disorganized and look slightly out of style, or at least out of season. [more mental churning here that's hard to put into words] I bet these clothes are on clearance."

    *looks at price on shirt*

    "Hey, this one is kind of cheap.. maybe I'm right."

    *finally notices big freakin' sign that says "CLEARANCE"*




    let's also play the game that everyone else is playing
    S / Concrete

    Concrete
    Realistic
    Prize enjoyment
    Aware of current trends
    Lives in the present
    Often use straight talk
    Aware of surroundings
    Notices details
    Often like crime novels
    Practical
    Factual
    Observation over imagination
    Often content with status quo
    Make things happen
    Loyal to friends

    If American; more likely to be conservative

    N / Abstract

    Future-focused
    Sees possibilities
    Prize inspiration
    Aware of own inspiration
    Introspective about the past
    Often use difficult words
    Flighty ideas
    Imaginative
    Often dislike crime novels
    Reflects but does not always do
    Theoretical
    Imagination over observation
    Often restless with status quo
    Contemplate things
    See both sides

    If American; more likely to be liberal

  4. #14
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    As usual, this is retarded drivel.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #15
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    thanks for the many responses. last time i chekced this thread it has 0! :-o

    as someone said, the danger of examples is, that they may be wrong. too much MBTI litterature get around this by using weasel words and by being overly vague. i'd like to hit a little closer to the mark than that.

    the looking at a picture and thinking of abstract definitions was taken from research into openness. but it may have gotten a little out of hand. still, though, that's basically the same way scientists define this.

    isn't anyone here conservative?
    best collection of philosopher typings online

    http://www.celebritytypes.com/philosophers/

  6. #16
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    the looking at a picture and thinking of abstract definitions was taken from research into openness. but it may have gotten a little out of hand. still, though, that's basically the same way scientists define this.
    From what I understand, the correlation between intuition and openness is not solid enough to use them interchangeably. I score pretty high on openness on the big 5 (assuming that's the openness you refer to). It is probably more accurate for distinguishing SJ from non-SJ.
    -end of thread-

  7. #17
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    i don't know your deffinition of openness, but one of typologies biggest flaw is it's unawareness of developemental psychology. closedness of western grown ups in my book correlates with retardedness. with personality disorders that prevent developement or just verry poor education or influence of fanatic subcultures. functions are lines of intelligence. any line of intelligence has it's own developement. there are other lines of intelligence, besides type functions. all of them start out in a simple minded thus "closed" fashion. openness is consideration of complexity / differenciation. one stage of developement is called conformism. albeit people don't comprehend developement (untill they have evolved towards vision logic) they have intuitive grasp on what conformism is, based on external clichees, as apposed to introspective awareness of internal functionality. (every stage is maintained, every new stage is made out of the functionality of all previous stages, therefore it is possible to grow differenciated understanding of all stages interally, this is called vision logic). most people associate SJ with conformism, even though in reality all lines and types go through and beyond conformism. why this association? because the conformistic stage is the most powerfull stage in culture, it's where most grown ups act from most of the time, even though modern culture is superficially inspired by values of higher stages like rationality and pluralism. coincidentally EXXJ types are most expressive of cultural values. it's through them that conformism get's it's external appearance. they like the uniforms and guide the rituals, they are on the frontpage of the newspaper. but they don't make the internal functionality of conformism happen any more than any other type. i don't trust in test results, but if i were to, i would have to come to the conclusion that a shitload of intuitives is limitied to conformism, based on their texan political attitudes.

    this is all relevant here, because, as i said, the ability to be abstract minded is mostly a result of developement. it's based on having grown the mental space (through internal differenciation) that allows for duplication of object representation: you have the original and the abstracted object, side by side and don't get confused about which is which. intuition may correlate with conscious focus on the virtual, idealistic. many abstractions are extremly practical though.

    in regard to "understanding" abstractions, i have noticed, that some people are good at using them without noticing that they are using abstractions, while others are good at noticing where the abstractions are comming from and prefering to stay in touch with their source, often pointing out "misguided" abstractions. same goes for symbolic thought of all forms. i think the former types are leftbrained J dominant and the latter are right brained P dominant.

    i could go on and on .... apparently i am still interested in typology :p

  8. #18
    Ginkgo
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    It seems to make Ns out as though they mosty rely on assumptions. How painful would it be if your skills at guessing were poor, but you were hardwired with a preference for N? Goodbye, cruel world, and damn you, intuitive preference!!!

    *raises fists in the air*

  9. #19
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    yeah its true but lets not to be too hard on us, cause human life is a subjective condition and people who attempt to rely "only" on hard facts aren't really doing "better" (less subjective) in the long run, because they are so subjective in their judgement about what's supposedly a hard fact and what not. the point is to learn to consciously deal with one's subjectivity. everyone has to know his place, the scope of his vision. people being overconfident (the majority imho), applying power beyond their scope, are possibly the biggest pain in humanity's butt.

  10. #20
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    From what I understand, the correlation between intuition and openness is not solid enough to use them interchangeably. I score pretty high on openness on the big 5 (assuming that's the openness you refer to). It is probably more accurate for distinguishing SJ from non-SJ.
    True, openness has more to it than intuition, its basically a group of sub scales and some of these subscales has nothing to do with N, but majority of them are directly comparable to aspects of N. This is why people might be S, but still score high on openness or might be N, but not so strong on openness.

    Correlation between the two is something around 75% if you look at it statistically, if i remember right.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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