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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default Dominant-Tertiary Loops

    This article seems to have the most basic spin on the subject that I've seen around. I offer this link for those who are into JCF:

    http://www.douban.com/group/topic/23092774/
    "So if you pick up mainly Ne and Te in someone, don't presume that he's an NT type--in fact, he's probably not. Depending on which is dominant, he is most likely either ENFP (Ne+Te with poor Fi) or ESTJ (Te+Ne with poor Si).

    Ironically, this user's primary personality imbalance was poorly developed secondary Fi--it turned out she actually was an ENFP providing a perfect example of over-dependence on extroverted attitudes. She reported placing far too much emphasis on the approval of others and couldn't introspect enough to figure out which type was really her. Without a strong introverted function she was left a poor sense of individual self, and showed it through her dependence on the opinions of others to determine her type. She was looking everywhere but the right place--inside."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #2
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I could see that -- it's typically the reliance of Primary and Tertiary pointing in the same direction (extroverted or introverted), with a neglected Secondary.

    I mean, you can't just ASSUME it, you still need to verify it somehow, but it's a plausible possibility that needs to be checked out.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I could see that -- it's typically the reliance of Primary and Tertiary pointing in the same direction (extroverted or introverted), with a neglected Secondary.

    I mean, you can't just ASSUME it, you still need to verify it somehow, but it's a plausible possibility that needs to be checked out.
    Our banned friend is only saying this loopiness can be the cause of mis-typings. On a personal note, consider how often others try to type me here and get it dead wrong - although they believe their call has 100% accuracy. I also read somewhere that tert-Si appears with ISTJ traits, as if Te also has some influence going on there.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Our banned friend is only saying this loopiness can be the cause of mis-typings.
    Honestly, this has been discussed by me and a bunch of other people on this site for at least 2-3 years or more, and I've discussed it on a few other sites as well. It's not a new concept.

    On a personal note, consider how often others try to type me here and get it dead wrong - although they believe their call has 100% accuracy. I also read somewhere that tert-Si appears with ISTJ traits, as if Te also has some influence going on there.
    It can.

    And back when I was obsessing over Ti in my teens, it probably came out more as Te because I would try to control every little detail in a discussion rather than going more Ne and focusing on the broad general truths that had gray in them. (Te typically demands concrete fixation on specific details, But Ti anchored to an S function will head in that direction too.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    oh shit. i think i have that a lot at my workplace: my Ne is going all over the place and needs to express itself, while my Te shouts orders that i need to focus and do my job. besides, my coworkers are way more close-minded than me and don't understand where i'm going with my Ne, so they tend to dismiss me as "crazy", and that often leads me to Te bitchslap. so, how am i supposed to develop my Fi? In a work context i mean....(wow i think i've just realized that it is going back home and doing stuff i like that helps me rebalance my Fi. does that make sense?)

    "ENFP/ESTJ: Ne/Te or Te/Ne--Borderline Personality Disorder. The ENFP I described above may have been one of these types. They simultaneously desire to control and dazzle others with their extraordinary leadership and grandiose performances. For the ENFP, this tends to take the form of insisting on consistent, scheduled attention from others for his/her artistic or creative gifts, while for the ESTJ it tends to manifest itself in terms of indignation when others refuse to follow every detail of the user's "visionary" leadership style. This combination, ironically, makes the user extremely dependent upon others for meaning, never really finding a sense of internal balance, no matter how hard he works to create and delegate. While Te leads these types to desire structure and discipline, Ne continually contradicts it by insisting on impulsive displays of creative freedom. Often self-denigrating over the inability to control Ne's impulsive explorations, Te will go to any lengths to keep the user in a position of power and influence, where others must defer to his authority. If Fi/Si were doing its job, these types would recognize that what they're looking for cannot be found outside themselves--they must learn to sometimes live for themselves and only themselves, and forget about external results for a moment. "

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Honestly, this has been discussed by me and a bunch of other people on this site for at least 2-3 years or more, and I've discussed it on a few other sites as well. It's not a new concept.
    And mistyping goes on forever. So when I was slammed once again with someone claiming I have mistyped myself - which implies that I have been using the wrong type for a good 20 or more years, of all things - I thought I would add this thread as a little reminder of how easy it is to mistype using this method. And I mean the Jungian function method. It's best just to keep typing simple. I could go around and around about my dad's dominant type, but in the long run, he was a male Feeler who always complimented the cook even when the food was bad (such as the time my brother accidentally put powdered sugar instead of flour in our turkey gravy).

    Now someone will say, "But don't Thinkers compliment the cook?" Or maybe someone's criticism will go something like, "If he was a Feeler are you assuming your dad didn't think?" I'm not saying he didn't think, but he wasn't a Thinking type in the MBTI. There is a difference between thinking and being a Thinking type. And in terms of the spectacular way in which my dad got along with people, such that he was actually semi-famous where we lived, he was a Feeler beyond any reasonable doubt. An ISFJ to be exact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And back when I was obsessing over Ti in my teens, it probably came out more as Te because I would try to control every little detail in a discussion rather than going more Ne and focusing on the broad general truths that had gray in them. (Te typically demands concrete fixation on specific details, But Ti anchored to an S function will head in that direction too.)
    That sounds like the Ti-Si look I was just describing: an ISTJ appearance with Te-aux. I guess it's like an INTP throwing on the mantel of an ISTJ. This is a known effect of the tertiary loop.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #7
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    That sounds like the Ti-Si look I was just describing: an ISTJ appearance with Te-aux. I guess it's like an INTP throwing on the mantel of an ISTJ. This is a known effect of the tertiary loop.
    This caught my eye, and sounds alot like what my INTP has been doing lately. Any idea what causes someone to slip into this kind of loop, and how to snap them out?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #8
    Member luismas's Avatar
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    So mal,

    When do you reckon the tertiary mode comes in? Or should it be more like a borderline personality 'disorder' , due to a rather undeveloped secondary function? How does your own loop work?

  9. #9
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    oh shit. i think i have that a lot at my workplace: my Ne is going all over the place and needs to express itself, while my Te shouts orders that i need to focus and do my job. besides, my coworkers are way more close-minded than me and don't understand where i'm going with my Ne, so they tend to dismiss me as "crazy", and that often leads me to Te bitchslap. so, how am i supposed to develop my Fi? In a work context i mean....(wow i think i've just realized that it is going back home and doing stuff i like that helps me rebalance my Fi. does that make sense?)

    "ENFP/ESTJ: Ne/Te or Te/Ne--Borderline Personality Disorder. The ENFP I described above may have been one of these types. They simultaneously desire to control and dazzle others with their extraordinary leadership and grandiose performances. For the ENFP, this tends to take the form of insisting on consistent, scheduled attention from others for his/her artistic or creative gifts, while for the ESTJ it tends to manifest itself in terms of indignation when others refuse to follow every detail of the user's "visionary" leadership style. This combination, ironically, makes the user extremely dependent upon others for meaning, never really finding a sense of internal balance, no matter how hard he works to create and delegate. While Te leads these types to desire structure and discipline, Ne continually contradicts it by insisting on impulsive displays of creative freedom. Often self-denigrating over the inability to control Ne's impulsive explorations, Te will go to any lengths to keep the user in a position of power and influence, where others must defer to his authority. If Fi/Si were doing its job, these types would recognize that what they're looking for cannot be found outside themselves--they must learn to sometimes live for themselves and only themselves, and forget about external results for a moment. "
    are ENFP 7w8s more prone to Ne/Te loops than other ENFPs?
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luismas View Post
    So mal,

    When do you reckon the tertiary mode comes in? Or should it be more like a borderline personality 'disorder' , due to a rather undeveloped secondary function? How does your own loop work?
    The page at http://www.douban.com/group/topic/23092774/ states:

    Ti thinks, "I cannot find any logical explanation for social rituals" and Si reinforces this self-isolating, risk-averse behavior by constantly reminding the user: "Remember how badly this went last time you tried?"
    That's one possibility. Ti is not necessarily schizotypal. But the basic idea is that Si reinforces a personality disorder through anxious thoughts about reliving unpleasant past episodes particularly in the social realm. The Ti-dom individual is normally a socially pleasant individual, but the Si loop brings out the worst social aspects. The Ti/Si loop is thus bound to repeat past mistakes, thus reinforcing the social anxiety. Tertiary Ne, on the other hand, creates anxious thoughts about the future, but not about social things. It's more along the lines of being prepared for problems blown way out of proportion, such as "what if my car breaks down and I don't have the money to fix it, and I can't get a ride to work, so I lose my job..." This is described as a "loop" because the anxious thoughts cycle around and around repeatedly and chronically. Anxiety leads this individual to seek relief through activities such as drugs and alcohol abuse which make problems seem to go away in the present but create problems in the future, thus reinforcing the cycle of anxious Ne thoughts.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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